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by CrispyDeath, Level 41
Last updated at August 27, 2008, 12:25 pm
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I take the idea of "what is god?" and I try to consider the possibilities that others have set before me. Most religious denominations tend to apply characteristics to their god. Such as they'll say god is all loving and all powerful (I will get back to these). They continue to say that god exists eternal, meaning basically that he exists outside of time itself, which implies he was there before the beginning and will be there after the end. In a sense they are saying he doesn't have a beginning and doesn't have an end at all. Its really belittling if you think about it.Â
But the same denomination (of Christianity - namely Catholicism) believes that god is all loving (implying he is all forgiving too). This is where I begin to have problems. While I can accept that god is eternal, for one would have to exist prior to creating the universe to actually create the universe (and even many ancient philosophers, Aristotle included, contend that there probably was a god but usually refer to "him" as a force), I have trouble believing that an entity who has created everything - all the evils in the world included - could be all loving. The idea that god could be all powerful is acceptable in my eyes. In fact, I find the denial of the possibility that there is a entity more powerful than you kind of absurd. Because if said entity did exist, how could you know? Which finds you falling back into the position that its possible god exists, how could I know?Â
Even Christianity gives hint that there is a level between god and humans - namely the angels. While Christianity names them servants of god, which I tend to interpret as an extension of god, isn't it possible there is some kind of entity that is akin to god, that is not god, that is powerful enough to act as god in some capacity, that could very well imitate god to our ancient ancestors? If god came up to you right now, how could you be sure that he is god. How could you be sure that he is not god?Â
I am kind of stealing this idea from Descarte, but maybe there is a mad scientist that dominates the world and controls what we see. Consider if a demon appeared before you with the appearance of what you envision god would look like (assuming it can read your mind and take that shape or form). What if he did acts of what you would assume a god could do. How much "magic" or "miracles" would it take you to think this thing may be god. ****, I am sure if someone could create a miracle like reshape matter I would be convinced that this thing may be god.
But how could I be sure? The answer is another christian idea (or atleast somewhat christian related although it may not have originated from christianity). Thats the idea of omnipotency. Omnipotency is a god-like attribute. The main idea behind it is that if you are omnipotent, you see and know everything to know about everything in the universe(s)* (read: existence - as noted below). If I were omnipotent I could discern if the thing before me is a demon or angel or god (or merely hallucination or illusion). I would also know instantly without searching if there actually is a god-like force or entity that began everything. Or maybe theres two god forces. Maybe theres an infinite number of distinct and unique god forces. Alas, I am not omnipotent (literally I see omnipotency as a philosophical fiction). That where my ignorance can never ever be removed. I cannot know existence therefore I cannot know if the being before me is god or some devil merely pretending to be god or if somewhere in existence such a force exists in some form or matter. Its very well possible god exists outside of any concept we, as humans, could fathom.
So where does that leave us agnostics? Maybe god exists? As humans, we can never know. What can we do? We can keep searching if we desire. Theres nothing wrong with the pursuit of knowledge and ultimately perfection (even though perfection is merely illusion). Or we can be satisfied with ambiguity. One of the most eye opening revelations I ever had was that of ambiguity. We (agnostics) can embrace it. Before I knew of a relatively new philosophical trend (that of embracing ambiguity) I felt that you either believed or you did not. I did not consider myself agnostic until I really considered the fact that I may be. Which was when I learned that there are certain decisions in your life that you can embrace the ambiguous position and still operate as a normal human would.Â
In fact, I find that the agnostic may even operate better without certain restrictions**. But at the same time, embracing ambiguity is not simply just saying "oh I'll take the middle ground always from now on, I don't really need to consider anything else". I find this faulty because its not a realistic approach to life. However, if in the progress of determining a solution to a difficult answer, you expend all available resources, and you have the option to stand neutral because neither side has convinced you and the matter is not pressing, embracing ambiguity as an answer may be the thing to do. Some would say that finding your own understanding of god and your relationship with him is one of the most important decisions you can make in your life. I say, why can't you choose the route of least resistance.Â
Its not blind faith so I don't have to convince myself of a "leap of faith", its simply not necessary. Because my reasoning, in my opinion at least, is based on my own reasoning and not some 2,000 year old doctrine which I hardly have the chance of evaluating*** simply because at that time I was not in existence or at least I do not have the same memories/thoughts etc I do at this time****.
Clearly spelled out (for those who have a short attention span), agnostics share two basic beliefs. That (1) we do question the existence of god and (2) that we are ignorant and can not determine if god exists. This is vastly contrary to what one might initially think an agnostic is about, that perhaps he questions god because he hasn't found an asnwer but the answer agnostics give to the existence of god is that "we do not know due to our ignorance". Its not very applicable in the question of "does god exist?" However, its our embracing ambiguity which allows us to leave this question unaswered (at least temporarily). By doing so it could be said that we prefer matter over form (potential over actual), for you Aristotilean thinkers out there.
Perhaps next time - applicability of subjective morals or an attempt to tackle eternal return (from a few perspectives jumbled into one)
end notes:
*several prominent physicists claim there may be more than one universe, but read this as EXISTENCE in its entirety
** a reference towards the subjectability of moral standards and not the total rejection of moral standards
*** determining credibility based on a cold (read: really old) doctrine is really hard to do since over time revisions are bound to be made (and have been)
**** simply refering to the possibility of reincarnation or perhaps plato's allegory of the cave

202 comments
CrispyDeath Aug 27, 2008 at 12:49 pm
+1 votes
lol, either it was you... or someone who has a grudge against you and transferred that grudge to me.. hah
CrispyDeath Aug 27, 2008 at 12:56 pm
+1 votes
I must've inspired you so much that you made a new account to downvote, woot
CrispyDeath Aug 27, 2008 at 12:55 pm
+1 votes
I am not even so sure that Epicurus was an atheist per se. You can reasonably that god is neutral to the concerns of evils vs. goods. It is to say that he is not willing but able, and perhaps to us we perceive that as malevolent. That doesn't actually mean he is malevolent, more or less it says he is not all-loving.
Also, Aristotle and other ancient philosophers and even modern physicists would say that before existence, nothing was in motion. And existence came about due to motion. The initial mover, would be the creator, whether its a force or persona of some sort, therefore he or it etc would be considered god. You've seen this before, its the big bang theory. Yes, ancient philosophers articulated this theory before modern science.
Also, Aristotle and other ancient philosophers and even modern physicists would say that before existence, nothing was in motion. And existence came about due to motion. The initial mover, would be the creator, whether its a force or persona of some sort, therefore he or it etc would be considered god. You've seen this before, its the big bang theory. Yes, ancient philosophers articulated this theory before modern science.
Ryszard Aug 27, 2008 at 2:01 pm
+3 votes
Explain life without evil.
Evil causes pain, sorrow, anger.
What's pleasure when there's no pain?
What's happiness when there's no sorrow?
Evil causes pain, sorrow, anger.
What's pleasure when there's no pain?
What's happiness when there's no sorrow?
Ryszard Aug 27, 2008 at 2:46 pm
+1 votes
Indeed for the people who chose good over evil in their life.
AeoltheGrammarChecker Aug 27, 2008 at 4:54 pm
+1 votes
You don't have to feel sad to have the capabilities of feeling happy. You can be "neutral". Just because someone never experiences pain doesn't mean that when he experiences pleasure he won't know what it is. Opposites are, for the most part, independent.
Ryszard Aug 27, 2008 at 4:58 pm
+1 votes
would you appreciate it as much? Opposites aren't really independent there's different degrees of happiness and sadness it's more of a linear progression in my opinion.
AeoltheGrammarChecker Aug 27, 2008 at 5:05 pm
+1 votes
Notice how I didn't say they are completely independent. I made sure to say "for the most part". Sure, if you're really sad and then an event happens that makes you happy, the contrast will be a lot more noticeable. That doesn't mean that if you WEREN'T feeling sad, that you wouldn't have experienced a lot of happiness anyway. In conclusion, my point still stands. One can definitely exist without the other.
Ryszard Aug 27, 2008 at 5:20 pm
+1 votes
I still don't think it'd be as meaningful without hardships.
CrispyDeath Aug 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm
+1 votes
What about the concept of heaven, that being often alluded to and sometimes even explicitly stated that heaven will be a place without hardship AND of happiness? Could such a place exist under your understanding?
Kyle P. Aug 27, 2008 at 4:37 pm
+1 votes
Preventing evil in many cases would be the same as preventing free will.
betterthanyou Aug 27, 2008 at 9:10 pm
+1 votes
everyone knows how fun that is.
god is boring.
or maybe, he i the funniest guy ever. depends how you look at it i guess.
god is boring.
or maybe, he i the funniest guy ever. depends how you look at it i guess.
Roma Victor Aug 28, 2008 at 7:39 pm
+1 votes
Preventing evil in many cases would be the same as preventing free will
Kyle, I had no idea you had a metaphysical side to you.
You stole my point though- burn, heretic!
Kyle, I had no idea you had a metaphysical side to you.
You stole my point though- burn, heretic!
CrispyDeath Aug 28, 2008 at 8:00 pm
+1 votes
What is perceived evil is subjective. Therefore you could remove the perception and leave free will in tact. Not that... anything would really change.
Wargasm Aug 27, 2008 at 1:20 pm
+3 votes
Most of us don't take religion very seriously anyway so I don't see the harm. And most of the people who do take it seriously look like absolute fools when it comes to debate.
Wargasm Aug 27, 2008 at 1:13 pm
+1 votes
Agnosticism is Atheist Lite as far as I'm concerned. Giving God a 50/50 chance at existing is like saying there's a 50% chance for the Easter bunny to exist. I'll wait for actual evidence to give Agnosticism a chance. I think most Agnostics just misunderstand the position of Atheism. But technically I'm an Agnostic Atheist... Which means I'm not saying "for a fact, there are no gods." But what I am saying is that it's so unlikely you might as well pay no attention to the idea. To me the chance of gods existing is just as likely as Santa or the Easter bunny existing.
amitlu Aug 27, 2008 at 1:24 pm
+2 votes
"But technically I'm an Agnostic Atheist... Which means I'm not saying "for a fact, there are no gods.""
That just means you're an atheist. The only people that say unequivocally there's no God, no chance, no how, are people trying to get attention.
Think of it like gravity. We've been observing gravity since we've been observing stuff falling, and our best theory says it's a mutually attractive force between objects with mass. We've observed that phenomenon rigorously enough to establish the theory as a basic law of the universe. But should we observe something new that contradicts the way we think about gravity, we adapt the theory with the new information. The people who say, "No, gravity is this way, regardless of any other information we may one day perceive," are just obstinate. Same goes for the "atheists" out there who completely reject the notion of any future observation of an intelligent creative force in the universe.
That said, teaching intelligent is a bunch of horse****. Just covering that base.
That just means you're an atheist. The only people that say unequivocally there's no God, no chance, no how, are people trying to get attention.
Think of it like gravity. We've been observing gravity since we've been observing stuff falling, and our best theory says it's a mutually attractive force between objects with mass. We've observed that phenomenon rigorously enough to establish the theory as a basic law of the universe. But should we observe something new that contradicts the way we think about gravity, we adapt the theory with the new information. The people who say, "No, gravity is this way, regardless of any other information we may one day perceive," are just obstinate. Same goes for the "atheists" out there who completely reject the notion of any future observation of an intelligent creative force in the universe.
That said, teaching intelligent is a bunch of horse****. Just covering that base.
Wargasm Aug 27, 2008 at 1:29 pm
+1 votes
Yeah I agree completely, the people who say gravity is a law aren't scientists. They aren't in the scientific mindset that there are no absolute laws, something could be discovered tomorrow that shatters our theories. It's highly unlikely that it should happen, but there is always the chance.
CrispyDeath Aug 27, 2008 at 1:25 pm
+1 votes
Well I am sure there are different degrees of agnosticism as I do tend to lean towards the existence of god rather than not. It seems your the opposite that you're agnostic but tend to lean towards the non-existence of god.
Wargasm Aug 27, 2008 at 1:33 pm
+1 votes
Yeah I lean toward the skepticism of all gods. I see no positive evidence for a god and so I can't give special favor to the idea. I went from being an Atheist at birth, to questioning my parent's religion, then within the span of a few months went from being a Deist to Agnostic to Atheist. I haven't looked back since I became an Atheist at the age of 16 (I'm 20 now.)
Postmodern Aug 27, 2008 at 1:16 pm
+1 votes
nice read, was this an essay of some sort or did u write it just for us xD
CrispyDeath Aug 27, 2008 at 1:26 pm
+1 votes
I wrote it for someone specific and after showing it to him, before he could respond, that it would be an interesting topic for all 
In other words, its not an essay, its not on turnITin.com... unless they scan this site.
In other words, its not an essay, its not on turnITin.com... unless they scan this site.
Neuromancer Aug 27, 2008 at 1:25 pm
+3 votes
Quoting a movie I saw a long time ago but do not remember the name of: "Agnostics are nothing but windy atheists."
Bethryn Aug 27, 2008 at 2:16 pm
+1 votes
It seems to be missing the following, which is one of my favourites:
"God so loved that world that he sent his only begotten son to be minorly inconvenienced."
"God so loved that world that he sent his only begotten son to be minorly inconvenienced."
Bethryn Aug 27, 2008 at 2:17 pm
+1 votes
I'm still not sure how agnosticism is applicable. Most actions when presented with a religious dilemma are either theistic or atheistic, and require assumption or faith one way or the other. It's quite hard to make a quantim decision that is neither atheistic nor theistic, as the waveform tends to break down.
xarrio Aug 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
+2 votes
are you kidding man i put agnostic on my resume and now i'm workin for microsoft
agnosticism is the secret ingredient to faction's pizzas
with a degree in Applied Agnosticism you can do anything
agnosticism is the secret ingredient to faction's pizzas
with a degree in Applied Agnosticism you can do anything
BlackivyNZ Aug 27, 2008 at 3:28 pm
+1 votes
I thought this was funny, who downvoted this satirical genius?
Sheesh, some people
Sheesh, some people
Sleek Aug 27, 2008 at 2:47 pm
+1 votes
So I'm guessing this sprung from our argument on Vir's blog, what was your problem with what I was saying? This is the correct religious stance. Literally. You seem to agree here, what was the problem?
Sleek Aug 27, 2008 at 3:25 pm
+1 votes
The stance is to acknowledge the truth, which is that there is no way to know. It is correct. Blindly believing in some arbitrary magical reality is not rational, and there is no reason to. The things you get from religion are superficial. We should seek the truth even if some of it is unattainable. You can only do this with an open mind, something that religion inhibits.
Wargasm Aug 27, 2008 at 3:43 pm
+1 votes
Actually by being Agnostic you're giving credit where none is due. You're entertaining the possibility that a God could well exist without giving a reason why. It's lazy. I'm not Agnostic about the tooth fair, I'm Atheistic about the tooth fairy. (Technically Agnostic Atheist, but I treat the tooth fairy and gods the same.)
Kyle P. Aug 27, 2008 at 4:50 pm
+3 votes
Religion is a practice of faith rather than of 'verifiable truths'. So there is no 'correct religious stance' - its just whatever people want to believe in.
Sleek Aug 27, 2008 at 4:59 pm
+1 votes
My argument is that basing your actions off of something you want to believe in is wrong. This whole blog was carried over from a comment argument where the context of "correct" means the most appropriate, specifically for an ideal world leader.
CrispyDeath Aug 27, 2008 at 5:19 pm
+1 votes
In a way it did spring from the discussion but not directly. Someone saw our discussion and contacted me via private messages. I wrote the majority of this blog in response to his message.
BlackivyNZ Aug 27, 2008 at 5:28 pm
+1 votes
Copy pasterrrrrrrrrrr
Going to work on clearing my thoughts a bit before responding.
Going to work on clearing my thoughts a bit before responding.
CrispyDeath Aug 27, 2008 at 5:42 pm
+1 votes
I changed god at one point to force or vice verse. Serenity Now!






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