What defines skill in a game?

IMHO, until it has easy spectator capabilities its chances are diminished.

 

Skill isn't an issue. There are tons of sports that require more skill than the mainstream, however, those sports are obscure and no one cares about them so they won't be as successful. Look at fighting for example. It hasn't really picked up speed till recently. It's probably the most demanding sport there is, but no one cares. They'll still pay more to go watch bad teams play football.

What matters then, is marketability, and public opinion of a sport. Dana White has popularized the UFC and so now it has fans. Before he popularized it, no one gave a sh1t. Video games are the same way. Call something more skilled or whatever, 99% of the public does not give a flying ****. What matters is what the layman thinks. And WoW has a huge fanbase that is ever growing, and is just an incredibly fun and addicting game.

I will say it right now, for how much Blizzard makes off of WoW, they can easily make big tournaments with 30k+ cash prizes probably 3-5 times a year, then other private tourneys would follow as well. Eventually, people are going to make more money playing WoW than Quake or CS or w.e.

What I am trying to say is that your perception of skill means nothing, it's what the common people think is good, and more normal run of the mill people like WoW than any other "e sport contender" type game.

EDIT: the people who knock WoW are just angry that their countless hours honing their mouseflicks is completely undermined by people who make more money and garner more  e-fame for what they perceive is less.

 

exactly.... as i said in my other blog... They are just upset, so they have to make our game look bad, therefore raising their own.

Ok so the solution is simple, we must commit mass genocide and kill everyone who doesnt play WoW, amirite?

 

Most of the people that are slamming WoW as an esport are the WoW players themselves.  WoW doesn't have a lot going for it at the moment outside of the tournaments.  A casual player likes to spectate matches of their favorite teams so they can really get behind them.

Without fan involment there is no progression for any game which wants to be an esport.  You can watch Madden, you can watch WC3, you can watch in many of those games.  WoW you cannot spectate and therefore you cannot build a fanbase outside of the folks that are playing in the top end for the most part.

 

no i dont think so.

This mentality from the people who would like to see this game succeed competitively  is often misunderstood. Top players do talk alot of **** for the most part, between spam, and pointless trash talk. However, does that not happen in every game in some shape or form? Lets face it, these players are good at the game, in top teams, and most likely will be competing in the tournaments etc... Its FREE money, they can say whatever they want here, on the WoW forums, in a txt. file recorded and posted on veevsvault (cough cough). The fact of the matter is that players of this nature, will not turn down free money if the opportunity is put in their face, who would? This world revolves around money, hello...

Other than that, people who enjoy WoW for what it is, (i.e.) RP'ers, Hardcore dedicated raiders and just Warcraft fans, probably will oppose this. However the situation with it is that they could honestly give a couple of ***** less what happens. Its not like if this game is on the verge of being put into the mlg circuit they are going to collaborate and strike at their headquarters. I honestly cannot see these players having a large impact on the direction this gaame goes in, on a side note blizzard is pushing fot this game to be an e sport, so how can we tell people this game is competetive without them taking it as a joke? Seems impossible.... sigh.

 

Ultimately accessability to the spectators is what makes or breaks any sport.  If CS didn't have the viewers the game wouldn't be making anyone money.  It's the same with any other game.  Online tournaments are a big step in the right direction for the game since offline tournaments take quite a bit of capital.  Also, the pay to play set up is certainly a way to fund the marketing costs associated with such tournaments.

In the short term the players will be able to make a decent buck while still doing what they do normally IRL (think Pandemic).  In the long term that money will go away if the sustainability of the game isn't there (i.e. ease of access to viewers). 

I think the most important thing to realize is that WoW hasn't made it as an esport just yet.  Once they start removing more of the RNG effects and making the game based more around the actual gameplay I think that those from other lines of gaming might give WoW a bit more respect.

One final note (in a long ass post), WoW arena and PVP needs to be more accessable.  Right now the amount of time it takes to even START being competitive works against the efforts to make the game a viable esport.  I can jump right into TF2, CS, Starcraft or WC3 and take off.  With WoW I have to spend 80 hours just to gear my character in gear that is 2 seasons behind.

 

Sorry but there is no WoW players/teams that garner the mainstream fame, or e-fame to the likes of Final Boss, coL, Team 3D, SK, Fatal1ty, Boxer, etc.

 

Who are you?
Go be a moron elsewhere.. Should put up a sign stating: "Smart people conversing, no downies allowed".
Drown.

 

sorry, btw the post you had before was good:
"IMHO, until it has easy spectator capabilities its chances are diminished."

Completely agree, however by reading ur other posts seems like your leaning more towards the other games just like the people im speaking of...

 

First off there is no need to flame, when we are having an intelligent discussion here. Final boss is making 250,00K a year per person playing halo, has been featured on MTV and in ESPN, etc. Boxer in his prime was making even more than that, may still be, and is gaming god in korea. Want me to continue? Name any wow player with that kind of fame and that kind of money from playing.

Im not trying to bash wow as a esport, but like Vir said below, the rng factor is a huge knock against it untill its own spectators and players have a ease of access in watching it.

Further more,

The benefit these other games is obvious. The randomness is limited, people can watch it with ease. Counter Strike wouldnt be nearly as popular were it not for HLTV. Number in the 7 digits have watched various matches at one time during some peak events. Such a feat at this time is impossible with WoW.

Blizzard starting the tourney scene will help, but more sponsors need to aid the cause too.

 

skill is maximizing everything you can do with the abilites at your disposal in every situation.  the problem is most team play is dictated, and is not freeform based on the individual, and thats my biggest knock against team WSG, or Arena teams, let alone videos of arena players playing a narrowed down role vs the individual accounting for everything w/ everything he has by himself like some of the old school videos.

the thing that goes unsaid is almost every player in WoW, especially those that care about being good so much, has to generally have the best stuff, and everything becomes more about rewards, ratings, and e-fame.  its why rated venues matter to them, they get recognition for what they do. there is no other difference between a rated WSG vs a non-rated one other than recognition, and rewards for hitting high ratings. 

competition in WoW is a joke to me, because IMO most WoW players front competetiveness by saying they 'play to win', but do everything they can to win w/o competition.  again because its all about ratings, e-fame, and rewards.  thats the motivation to always shortcut and exploit the system.  sure it gives players something to shoot for that makes what they do worthwhile to them if they dont really enjoy the act of PvP, but more it just kind of speaks for the materialistic aspect of those players rather than the truly competetive nature of loving the act of PvP.

it just seems to me everytime i login i see way more reward-based players by far than people who actually enjoy the acts of playing the game.  then they front it like its all about 'skill and competition', but its just a lie.  i guess an analogy would be that raider that says they love the challenge of the encounters in Raiding, but then when rewards end up trivialized by welfare epics, they all of a sudden have a problem and that challenge taht supposedly motivates them doesnt truly motivate them to do what they did.  It just reinforces the idea that so many people front competiton in this game, and it applies both to PvE, and especially to PvP IMO.

but getting back to Arena, i think it speaks for team based skill and more communication, but as ive stated before its alot like raiding where you are pigeon-holed into a role generally where you dont have to account for all of the things an individual generally has to in a real setting or old school movies, and in alot of ways getting your hand held.  Its even worse IMO if you play on one of those teams where one person is dictating everything everyone on your team does, and most of the team is afraid to deviate from that in fear of getting nerd-raged on and not completely just taking care of the narrowly focused job asked of them.

 

bbl work...

 

Skill is non-RNG.  

 

but dont you think when rng works both ways, and matches are generally best of's....that it all evens itself out in the end because its equal opportunity rng?

to me rng is mmorpg. without rng this would be a fps. and i've always felt rng was equally discriminating therefore when people qq blaming a loss on rng, it just amounted to QQ since that rng could've just as easily gone in their favor.

 

Well said Vir. It is one of the reasons people despise critical hits in Team Fortress 2. There is a random, yet somewhat momentum based multiplier that allows for random more damaging hits. It takes skill out of the game to an extent.

You can out skill someone to a certain point, yet a rng type factor in one swoop can negate the work put it to that point in competitive play.

Just because both teams have this capability doesn't mean it may or may not balance out.  The numbers could fall your way in a far less, or far more critical point in play for your team.

 

but i just dont get that mentality from alot of you.  this si the same joke mentality IMO(and no offense) that caused the replay of a lag spike in that controvesial tourney which honestly is a complete joke in any competetive environment.  stuff like that happens especially in online games, where you cant control every possible thing, and this idea that every win must be picture perfect even'd out to a T is silly. 

in real sports the wind, rain, and snow makes a difference.  it allows a running team to get a huge advantage against a pass based team.  do they replay it because the random factors werent completely even?  if a guy slips because of a divit or a wet floor and misses the game winning layup, are they going to replay it?  random **** happens, just like that scrubb roleplayer hitting the game winner instead of the star.  its just that every win in competition isnt completely black and white and what should've happened in a perfect scenario.  if that were the case the Patriots would've/should've won the superbowl.

i just dont understand the disdain for some randomness that goes both ways in competition with some of you.  i think theres more of a reasonable middle ground of justification for it, than pretending like every win/loss must be completely black and white on the up and up, or it shouldnt be played.

 

I totally agree the restart via the lag was retarded, but this is a different topic than that. That is something that is out of ones control.

This is randomness built in to the game, much like say poker. I enjoy poker, love it in fact, play it all the time. But there is only so much skill involved. A average player can beat a great player more often than not if he getting the luck of the draw, or the crit shot, or the benefit of the rng. Hence why poker isn't a pure skill game. (for proof, like at WSOP winners of late, no pros)

Some people like these types of odds, and games, others dont. Most esports that have gone on to have success so far, baring minimal randomness in Madden, have been more skill based than rng based.

A better comparison, though considering I dont equate games with sports for comparison purposes, would spinning a basketball at the start of tip off, or at a jump ball, and which ever half it lands on that team gets the possession. That is random. The other factors you list are inherent of the enviroment, not the game itself.  Where as WoW's randomness is built in to the game.

 

Competitive gaming should be done on a LAN not over the internet.   If at all possible (fighting games) it should be done on stand up arcade machines where latency (and latency correction code) is not a factor.

As for the football analogy, you can build a team around the elements you play in at home.  So there is some skill involved.  You can't build a WoW team around lag or non-lag.

If a guy slips on wet turf, he could have adjusted his running style to be more conservative, or the equipment manager could have given him better cleats.

If a WoW player gets a lag spike, how could they have countered that?

Really I object to competitive gaming being called 'e-sports'.  Video Games are not a sport.  World Series of Poker doesn't call itself 'World Series of Sport Poker'.

 

Good question however when it comes to WoW I think a lot of non-WoW players will bag it because it is an MMORPG.  WoW is competitive even with the built-in-luck factors.  Every game has luck.  At lower levels of Counterstrike lots of random headshots are tossed around.  In Quake lucky spawns can happen.  In RTS, FPS, Fighter, Racing, sports games, they all have one thing in common and that is to jump in and start practicing.  There are no walls between you and the next player besides knowledge and experience.

WoW is an MMORPG first and a competitive arena game second.  If I watch a WoW match and think to myself 'hey that's pretty awesome.'  Then get some friends interested and buy the game.  We are met with leveling, gearing, grinding, farming and possibility of being nerfed when I or a friend gets to a point of even playing field.  Until Blizzard makes their tournament server a 'permanent' server (always up and open year round) I don't think you'll see much of outside non-WoW players give the arena community much respect.  On top of that WoW players have a reputation of doing nothing but sitting around killing dragons 6 days a week for 8 hours a day.

This is an opinion.

 

Ever watch a first person VOD of a pro StarCraft player? That's about as skillful as it gets in terms of video games right now.



But if we were to talk about in general, I'd say that defining skill
varies from game to game. Without writing a wall of text about how to
spot skill in a game like WoW, I'll just say some traits are universal:
Reaction time/twitch, knowledge of the game, communication, handling
pressure, leadership, ect. You can't spot any of this looking at a stat
sheet or a name on a ladder rank though, ultimately I feel it's
something you have to witness to determine.

 

skill is knowledge of the game, understanding each situation, knowing what you should do AND other people should do, VERY fast reaction, the list goes on forever based upon each game