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by Brilliance, Level 29
Last updated at December 21, 2008, 1:55 pm
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Imagine, if you will, not being (insert random generic gamer insult here). Take that vision of yourself and give it a haircut, shave that scruff, remove the cans of soda from the desk and take out the trash. Replace the trash with a stack of BFR .50 Smith and Wesson Magnums and condoms. Replace the cans of soda with M67 grenades. Replace the computer with the M1 Abrams tank and replace the desk with the trigger for the cannon and some condoms. Now replace your mother/roommates with some hot chicks and some condoms and you have a good idea of what Wintergrasp tenacity does for you.
Wintergrasp tenacity effectively gives players all of the tools stated above to bring to a PvP experience against a number of 5 year olds during the smooth musings of the Secret of Nimh at nap time. The problem is that these players are still fumbling to figure out what the hell a condom is and despite their bleak and sad performance issues can merely come out on top without a true understanding of how to use everything in front of them simply by plowing headlong into the situation. The rest of us are left feeling confused, horribly amused, sad and ashamed when we wake up. Tenacity is the definition of an incorrectly assumed implementation that was designed to balance the field in the wrong way.
Blizzard seem to be following the trend of working for balance over fun. Rather than designing specific bonus siege weapons, powerful NPCs or other tactical equipment they simply tossed the smalled force effective raid boss status in the hopes that it will bring these players in line. What has been forgotten in the mix is that certain classes make massive use of the skill based purely upon what they can do with their spec. A warrior with 10 stacks of tenacity getting stunned is worth many lulz when you're on the outside looking in, but when that green sword of the bandit hits you for half of Jesus, there's a problem.
WE GET IT
Yes, these players can be CC'd. Yes, these players can be mana burned. That being said the obvious argument is the best argument in that it's difficult to do either when the Mighty Keyboard Turner swings that "skill" your way.
It's still fun, though, and I can't deny that. Nonetheless there's nothing more frustrating than knowing that there is no "outplay." There is no faster reaction. There is no clear definition of a better player in the encounters. Everyone pines for skill based engagements but this buff only serves to undermine that very desire.
Anyway I can complain about a minor and well documented issue, but it's nothing game breaking. I can't fault players for getting the buff and I wonder how epicly fun it must be to have received it. All in all it just looks like a bandaid fix to the issue that asks players not to be mobile for fear of being left stranded and completely and utterly destroyed. It asks players not to force the engagement but rather wait for it to come to them and hope they can zerg hard enough to live. To me that seems to ruin the very essence of PvP when any thought is removed in favor of "force it down." Yes, other battlegrounds do the same, but this one seems to reward it in spades.
Here's to hoping for a better mechanic in the future, even if this one isn't all that bad.
AND YES MAYBE I DID GET ****** UP BY THE MIGHT KEYBOARD TURNER AND DIDN'T LIKE IT.

21 comments
ARCTURAS Dec 21, 2008 at 2:04 pm
+1 votes
Imagine, if you will, not being (insert random generic gamer insult here). Take that vision of yourself and give it a haircut, shave that scruff, remove the cans of soda from the desk and take out the trash. Replace the trash with a stack of BFR .50 Smith and Wesson Magnums and condoms. Replace the cans of soda with M67 grenades. Replace the computer with the M1 Abrams tank and replace the desk with the trigger for the cannon and some condoms. Now replace your mother/roommates with some hot chicks and some condoms andWe don't have all that stuff already?
Brilliance Dec 21, 2008 at 2:46 pm
+1 votes
Well for that I pretty much just looked around the room and replaced "used condoms" with "condoms."
nzgs Dec 21, 2008 at 2:29 pm
+1 votes
blizzard don't understand pvp, and they never did. They got lucky with starcraft and have never managed to recreate it properly. They don't understand that you can't just engineer world pvp, it has to take place naturally under the right conditions. Wintergrasp is such horrible pvp, infact it isn't even player vs player, it's tank vs turret for 30 odd minutes and then lag vs lag at the end for a few hectic minutes at the orb. If one side is outnumbered then tough, it's up to them to gather more people and it's up to blizzard to fix server pops. I don't see why the pvp experience should be ruined for everyone via tenacity.
Heldericht Dec 21, 2008 at 8:43 pm
+1 votes
Sounds like you're the one who doesn't understand world PvP.
There is no such thing as natural world pvp. It will never occur freely on its own. Sure there's the random gank while leveling or the tussle for summoning stone rights outside instances, but these events shouldn't be confused with world pvp. That is something that must be coaxed into existence by game mechanics and incentives. Normal world pvp is zerg vs zerg with the one with more numbers generally winning.
And even if they win, there is no tangible reward, there is nothing keeping them in that spot in the miles upon square miles of digital pixels, no sense of scale or of war... just localized rapefests.
Contrary to popular belief, that is NOT fun.
Wow NEEDS zones like wintergrasp. I think it has actually been implemented quite successfully. People actually WANT to do it because the rewards are sufficient not only on an individual level but for the entire faction as well. Its not perfect by any means, but its just a few changes away from being one of the best things that ever happened to world pvp in WoW.
There is no such thing as natural world pvp. It will never occur freely on its own. Sure there's the random gank while leveling or the tussle for summoning stone rights outside instances, but these events shouldn't be confused with world pvp. That is something that must be coaxed into existence by game mechanics and incentives. Normal world pvp is zerg vs zerg with the one with more numbers generally winning.
And even if they win, there is no tangible reward, there is nothing keeping them in that spot in the miles upon square miles of digital pixels, no sense of scale or of war... just localized rapefests.
Contrary to popular belief, that is NOT fun.
Wow NEEDS zones like wintergrasp. I think it has actually been implemented quite successfully. People actually WANT to do it because the rewards are sufficient not only on an individual level but for the entire faction as well. Its not perfect by any means, but its just a few changes away from being one of the best things that ever happened to world pvp in WoW.
Madyo Dec 22, 2008 at 5:32 am
+1 votes
Clearly wow is your first mmo. You are right though, in wow, world pvp is impossible.
Yiska Dec 22, 2008 at 9:21 am
+1 votes
I think there wasn't a blizzard game the last decade that hasn't been a competitive game at top notch level except wow. WC2 was, SC is, WC3 is the best you can get in esports, and even diablo2 (ok maybe not 1) is pretty competitive in a leaguesystem, while o/c equipment can **** up the balance. WoW really has been the first failure, probably because they smelled the money.
nzgs Dec 22, 2008 at 4:56 pm
+1 votes
wc3 was always a marginal esport. wc2 was poor. SC is their only big hit. They got lucky with SC and tried to rehash it time and time again but it was never the same. Similarly with wow they got lucky with world pvp at the start and could never re-engineer the same thing.
id software is an esports developer, blizzard are not. id software have good players working at every level of the company, blizzard do not.
id software is an esports developer, blizzard are not. id software have good players working at every level of the company, blizzard do not.
Yiska Dec 22, 2008 at 11:02 pm
+1 votes
wc2 was still very competitive. I remember the big tournament with tillerman winning pretty much all the time. You can still make twice the cash from cs with wc3 via tournaments and spnsorship. I'd say it's still the 2nd greatest e-sports, just because it's still so popular in korea and germany. Balance issues only evolve around certain maps in wc3 and most pros can already play at least two races. The only thing you can ***** about is the rng in wc3 (blademaster crits etc.)
The only id game ever touching a blizzard game in terms of success is quake. The rest is just poor crap nobody gives a **** about (o/c in terms of esports). The fifa series has more pricemoney every year than every other id game.
Blizzard talked to succesfull players repeatendly the last decade, because the forums just weren't as popular outside of wow. I remember grubby admitting that blizzard was repeatendly talking with the 4k squad about balanceissues. It's still not as much cooperation as one could wish though, yes.
The only id game ever touching a blizzard game in terms of success is quake. The rest is just poor crap nobody gives a **** about (o/c in terms of esports). The fifa series has more pricemoney every year than every other id game.
Blizzard talked to succesfull players repeatendly the last decade, because the forums just weren't as popular outside of wow. I remember grubby admitting that blizzard was repeatendly talking with the 4k squad about balanceissues. It's still not as much cooperation as one could wish though, yes.
AllCharters Dec 21, 2008 at 3:47 pm
-1 votes
SOME OF US DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY AS GOOD AS YOU AND SOMETIMES WE JUST NEED A LITTLE HELP IS ALL. WHY CANT YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT.
sisyphean Dec 21, 2008 at 4:40 pm
+0 votes
Great blog dude. Good for many laughs.
And yeah, Blizz lucked into Brood War, specifically (Star Craft was not balanced at all) and has never really figured things out since then.
I mean, ffs - I think DotA has a better competitive scene than War3 does these days.
WoW needs player-created mods, seriously.
And yeah, Blizz lucked into Brood War, specifically (Star Craft was not balanced at all) and has never really figured things out since then.
I mean, ffs - I think DotA has a better competitive scene than War3 does these days.
WoW needs player-created mods, seriously.
Yiska Dec 22, 2008 at 9:26 am
+1 votes
If you think War3 balance is ****** up, you have no idea. It might not be as balanced as broodwar but tournament placing show that it's still close to perfect balance.
sisyphean Dec 23, 2008 at 4:47 pm
+1 votes
Nah, I know WAR3's balanced well, TFT fixed most of the really bad issues it had in vanilla. I've just always been bemused by the fact that DotA has the sort of popularity it does compared to WAR3 proper.
I do think, however, that Blizz missed the plot on War3 as a competitive follow up to both War2 and Brood War. After months of changes through patching and the expansion, they salveged it and made it into an interesting game, but the first year or two it really seemed to me that they were just flailing and praying that a good competitive game would magically appear in their laps.
I do think, however, that Blizz missed the plot on War3 as a competitive follow up to both War2 and Brood War. After months of changes through patching and the expansion, they salveged it and made it into an interesting game, but the first year or two it really seemed to me that they were just flailing and praying that a good competitive game would magically appear in their laps.
terreo Dec 21, 2008 at 4:50 pm
+2 votes
Siege vehicles are not afraid of lag. Attacking side is victorious.
Aphyrax Dec 21, 2008 at 5:45 pm
+5 votes
Who cares? Once you get in the keep, there is 10k ping during prime time, and the attackers always win because in that extreme lag, walls are the only thing you can actually fire at.
Until they fix the lag, any other balance considerations are moot.
Until they fix the lag, any other balance considerations are moot.
Solange Dec 22, 2008 at 8:33 am
+1 votes
i used to worry about tenacity but then i noticed that even on my small server all WG battles not at 4am feature 30 sec lag once you get near the keep. You get close, you lag, in a few min you are in GY but cannot rez, then 14 min later there is victory and WG changes sides for 2.5 hours (attackers always win). so you see tenacity, and in fact everything else, is not that big of a deal in WG.
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