POST STUFF
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 by kowsosoft, Level 34
Last updated at August 9, 2007, 6:23 pm
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Here's what I don't like about the holy priest, though. Much like the Restoration tree for druids, the Discipline tree is the default tree for either a Holy or Shadow priest to put their leftover points in. Of course, the main difference here is that Discipline doesn't quite measure up to Restoration, but it has some solid talents, and I wouldn't do without my .5 second Mass Dispel by any means.
How do you describe the three priest trees, though? Holy is about making your heals more effective and more efficient. It's about healing. Shadow makes you a viable DPS class in both angles of the game. Discipline, though? Well, let's see, there's a little bit of mana efficiency, a little bit of stat growth, a little DPS effectiveness (buried so deep that it's useless for Shadow), a sorta-dispellable Shield Wall, a crucial raid buff, mana burn improvements.. it MAKES NO SENSE. There is *no* cohesion in this tree. You could PLAUSIBLY make a case for it being the defensive/survivability tree, except that the single most valuable talent for a priest's survivability is buried in the 30+ tier of Holy.
Blessed Resilience was plausibly added to give deep holy priests some measure of PVP survivability, but the vision behind this seems awfully short-sighted since there are only *two* types of priests, not three, so the defensive talents in discipline sit there making little to no sense (lololol Inner Fire scaling).
Priests are utterly *strapped* for points in the 3rd and 4th tiers of Discipline and have a bunch of "well ****, might as well put that point in Holy Nova" (no I dont actually take holy nova) at the same level of Holy. The trees are haphazard and they look like they were designed by some weird methodology that probably uses a dartboard as a key component. That's my one and only complaint about Holy Priest PVP. Nobody will *ever* spec for Pain Suppression because nobody will *ever* give up Blessed Resilience. Thank *god* we don't have to choose between BR and Focused Power, or it'd be a real mess.
My solution: Put Divine Spirit and Imp DS in the Holy tree (PVE buff!), and put Blessed Resilience in the Discipline tree. This clears up some of the nonsense plaguing the Discipline tree, and it allows a raiding Holy Priest to finally go Circle of Healing without sacrificing Imp DS, which acts like a free flask for every caster in the raid.
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23 comments
Renew Aug 9, 2007 at 6:49 pm
+1 votes
Priests need a bit of work.
Right now a healing class cannot be only a pure healing class. They need to bring some utility to the raid / group. PvPwise, Priests bring Mana Burn and support dispelling, in PvE they bring nothing.
We were talking about it the other night and a 5 min cooldown debuff that plays with the boss mobs mind in a certain way might be cool to promote bringing more than one (some do not even do that nowadays) non Shadow Priest to a raid.
The DS in Holy chains was suggested a while back and for some reason shot down. They are hellbent on LOLwell and CoH being taken over DS. They also would rather look into nerfing Shadow Priests and other healers instead of looking at the real reason Priests aren't as amazing as other Healer Buff classes. They lack the Buff.
Right now a healing class cannot be only a pure healing class. They need to bring some utility to the raid / group. PvPwise, Priests bring Mana Burn and support dispelling, in PvE they bring nothing.
We were talking about it the other night and a 5 min cooldown debuff that plays with the boss mobs mind in a certain way might be cool to promote bringing more than one (some do not even do that nowadays) non Shadow Priest to a raid.
The DS in Holy chains was suggested a while back and for some reason shot down. They are hellbent on LOLwell and CoH being taken over DS. They also would rather look into nerfing Shadow Priests and other healers instead of looking at the real reason Priests aren't as amazing as other Healer Buff classes. They lack the Buff.
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kowsosoft Aug 9, 2007 at 6:57 pm
+1 votes
When did they say this? I left the Class Balance panel thinking "They
want to improve Holy Priest raiding via lolwell, SoR, and CoH? They
don't even understand their own problem," but it sounds like they sorta
do understand it, they just have a very stubborn interpretation of it.
Hopefully the results of this fixation on the "Holy Trinity" are something interesting.
want to improve Holy Priest raiding via lolwell, SoR, and CoH? They
don't even understand their own problem," but it sounds like they sorta
do understand it, they just have a very stubborn interpretation of it.
Hopefully the results of this fixation on the "Holy Trinity" are something interesting.
Renew Aug 9, 2007 at 7:50 pm
+1 votes
If you were at the class panel they talked about how Shadow Priests were needed to regen mana for other classes. So other classes will be getting a fix to that (in the form of spirit I am guessing come WotLK). They said this should help out in the need for Shadow Priests over Holy Priests in raids.
That is not why we would prefer to bring Pallies and Shaman to heal, it's because Blessings, Totems and Heroism are superior to a pure healbot. Right now we have raided a few weeks without a Resto Shaman (hell most nights only 1 Shaman in the raid) and have been doing fine, but it is not optimal at all. If they are fine with a Priest not being optimal then they have balanced the class at this time as intended, but to me it seems pretty BS.
I suggested to Blizz people pre BC when it was in beta that Priests needed buffs added to their heals (like Inspiration) and then they might be as popular as the Paladin. This was before I knew we would prefer bringing in Shaman over Priests too. If a healer cannot bring something to improve the group/raid (IMP DS is stupid and does not count) then they will be the filler class you bring if you cannot bring a Paladin or Shaman. Druids have BRes, so they are decent, though even they could use a little something.
That is not why we would prefer to bring Pallies and Shaman to heal, it's because Blessings, Totems and Heroism are superior to a pure healbot. Right now we have raided a few weeks without a Resto Shaman (hell most nights only 1 Shaman in the raid) and have been doing fine, but it is not optimal at all. If they are fine with a Priest not being optimal then they have balanced the class at this time as intended, but to me it seems pretty BS.
I suggested to Blizz people pre BC when it was in beta that Priests needed buffs added to their heals (like Inspiration) and then they might be as popular as the Paladin. This was before I knew we would prefer bringing in Shaman over Priests too. If a healer cannot bring something to improve the group/raid (IMP DS is stupid and does not count) then they will be the filler class you bring if you cannot bring a Paladin or Shaman. Druids have BRes, so they are decent, though even they could use a little something.
kowsosoft Aug 9, 2007 at 9:23 pm
+1 votes
Druids seem pretty burly right now, Caal and Euro's hots do about 1300-1400 hp a second, each.
Moreli Aug 14, 2007 at 8:26 am
+1 votes
They bring just as much as any resto druid. And save for 15 minute buffs they bring nearly the same amount of healing when played correctly.
Being a resto druid, the spirit buff comes in handy as it converts directly into healing for me, through talents and tree form.
Being a resto druid, the spirit buff comes in handy as it converts directly into healing for me, through talents and tree form.
Anenga Aug 10, 2007 at 5:24 am
+1 votes
Fixing Priests is pretty simple. A talent shuffle (move Blessed Resil to Disc), improve Circle of Healing to work in a raid setting (instead of party), buff Lightwell to work as a HoT through damage and have 15 charges, etc.
kowsosoft Aug 10, 2007 at 12:02 pm
+1 votes
My guild sees Imp DS as being the strongest thing we can bring to the table, and if the alternative is Circle of Healing then we have to bring one gimpy priest w/ ****ty heals and one priest with good ones to every raid. Seems silly to me; I'd really hope to see Imp DS utility made more easily available.
deathtac Aug 10, 2007 at 5:41 am
+1 votes
Priest's need a huge buff in pve, they are pretty much terrible. You only need one holy priest for a raid and that's for fort buff, just like you only need one mage for mother shaz fight for ai/food/water. Paladins are just too crazy at healing atm.
Nobbeh Aug 10, 2007 at 6:15 am
+1 votes
nah i wouldnt take only one priest, paladins are good yes but letting one priest buff takes too long ;p.
Also i do agree that priests need reworking in pve and pvp, priest in my 5v5 has around 450 res and still drops like a fly O.o
Also i do agree that priests need reworking in pve and pvp, priest in my 5v5 has around 450 res and still drops like a fly O.o
kowsosoft Aug 10, 2007 at 12:03 pm
+1 votes
Then at a glance your healers are letting him rot or he's doing a bad job of staying back, that or he's shadow and doesn't have BR :<
deathtac Aug 10, 2007 at 5:40 pm
+1 votes
We have always taken only ONE holy priest, of course we bring 2-3 mana batteries but that is besides my point. A holy priest cannot compare to what a paladin can do on the healing charts unless it's a certain fight like bloodboil where group heals are amazing.
Renew Aug 10, 2007 at 2:36 pm
+1 votes
People still aren't getting the point. Priest healing is and always has been on par with other classes (especially in tier 6), but they bring nothing more to the table. Paladin healing is good and they also give you blessings you pretty much need in order to progress at a decent rate. Shaman raid healing is insane and they give a group totems and Heroism. Druids raid heal extremely well and bring battle res to the table.
Priests = Pure Healers
Druids, Paladins and Shaman = Healers with raidwide buffs.
A pure healer isn't as desirable in a 25 person raid group as a healer with buffs. And no, the solution isn't to nerf the other classes healing, they will still be more sought after than a pure healer. Holy Priests need better synergy with a raid.
Priests = Pure Healers
Druids, Paladins and Shaman = Healers with raidwide buffs.
A pure healer isn't as desirable in a 25 person raid group as a healer with buffs. And no, the solution isn't to nerf the other classes healing, they will still be more sought after than a pure healer. Holy Priests need better synergy with a raid.
kowsosoft Aug 10, 2007 at 4:20 pm
+1 votes
I donno if I agree, Priest Healing on the whole is sort of.. Lowest Common Denominator. Our big heals match up with a shamans and maybe a paladins, but our gear set doesn't encourage high crit percentages, so our output is lower, and we don't get mana back FROM crits (or from being healed), so our efficiency is lower. Shamans aren't built to heal MTs typically, so comparing our big heals to theirs is silly since they're there to heal the raid. There's no *way* we get better heal output than a druid with lifebloom, so I don't see how our heals shine in that respect either. We're best suited for healing a single source with chained heals, but there are people who do that better too because of either their efficiency (paladins) or their ridiculous hps (druids).
I still agree that our utility is what's most lacking, though. We could help our efficiency a great deal if we could spec for CoH w/o losing Imp DS, but I know Insurrection prefers I stay Imp DS (though they've said if I want to go CoH I'm welcome to give it a shot).
I still agree that our utility is what's most lacking, though. We could help our efficiency a great deal if we could spec for CoH w/o losing Imp DS, but I know Insurrection prefers I stay Imp DS (though they've said if I want to go CoH I'm welcome to give it a shot).
Nabukun Aug 11, 2007 at 6:06 am
+0 votes
http://www.meineigen.net/webstats/wws-history/
There's nothing wrong with holy priests in PvE. Any obstacles that the class has can be overcome with skill, as is evident in these parses.
There's nothing wrong with holy priests in PvE. Any obstacles that the class has can be overcome with skill, as is evident in these parses.
kowsosoft Aug 11, 2007 at 6:15 am
+0 votes
You're right, Circle of Healing requires a great deal of skill to use
properly, clearly that's it, not the reams of discussion going on here
and in other threads about how ridiculous it is that we bring little to
no utility outside of our heals, yet we only occasionally outperform
other healers in raids, and often are better suited taking up Imp DS.
lol @ l2play posts from random forum lvl 1's who are months behind on content
properly, clearly that's it, not the reams of discussion going on here
and in other threads about how ridiculous it is that we bring little to
no utility outside of our heals, yet we only occasionally outperform
other healers in raids, and often are better suited taking up Imp DS.
lol @ l2play posts from random forum lvl 1's who are months behind on content
Icicles Aug 11, 2007 at 6:21 am
+1 votes
It used to be where not having a healing priest was really noticeable and our overall raid effectiveness was diminished without one. Now, we don't even blink when our priests are MIA. Doesn't feel right....here's for some positive changes soon
Nabukun Aug 11, 2007 at 6:30 am
+1 votes
Was she using Circle of Healing much on any of those fights, other than VR? Doesn't look like it to me. It's all GH/Heal. This wasn't a L2P post at all, just a genuine disagreement with your opinion and the opinion of many other people that holy priests suck at PvE. A skilled player is a skilled player.
P.S- Elitist comments about how my guild is behind on progession, nice
(we raid 3 nights a week).
P.S- Elitist comments about how my guild is behind on progession, nice
(we raid 3 nights a week).Renew Aug 11, 2007 at 8:54 pm
+1 votes
I used to be up on top of the healing meter too when I was playing my Priest, but that still doesn't mean much. If there was an extra Paladin or Shaman online, the raids overall power would have been a lot higher if they were in the raid in place of me.
With the way groups are constructed in BC, CoH works to an extent well, but... nvm not going to repeat myself.
Priest healing is fine (could possibly use a few tweaks to the bad talents), Priest synergy compared to the Hybrids is not. Hybrids healers are the classes who should get chosen first for those raid slots. Unlike Hybrid tanks and DPS.
With the way groups are constructed in BC, CoH works to an extent well, but... nvm not going to repeat myself.
Priest healing is fine (could possibly use a few tweaks to the bad talents), Priest synergy compared to the Hybrids is not. Hybrids healers are the classes who should get chosen first for those raid slots. Unlike Hybrid tanks and DPS.
Idejder Aug 12, 2007 at 2:39 pm
+2 votes
Renew you read the things I suggested right? I know I linked this one but I do not know if you got to it yet.
BTW this was a good writeup, kow.
BTW this was a good writeup, kow.
Renew Aug 14, 2007 at 7:23 am
+1 votes
I read it Ide and was looking to reply to it when you finally released it. Then kow posted this and I didn't really want to write the same thing again. I will reply to yours though.
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