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 by Saz, Level 14
Last updated at February 2, 2008, 8:56 am
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Since the beginning, 35/23/3 specced warriors have ruled arenas. Minor differences can be seen in warrior specs but none so drastic as 21 in prot. Arena is a completely different game now in season 3 than it was in season 1, when we all had our warriors spec out of parry and into heroic strike with the logic that parrying will result in less rage thus less dmg. Now with warriors rarely being the main damage dealer in a team and them being such a viable target for any team to switch to, is it really that far out of left field to suggest they spec 21 points into prot?
Rathorse came up with this spec which our warriors have been playing with over the past few weeks:
It has become apparent to many high end arena teams that stuns win games. Mid season 2 we saw warlocks begin transitioning to felgaurd spec and hunters to Imp Conc over RWS. The benefits of stunning someone in an awkward position and landing either mass burns or heavy burst are far greater than the benefits of 5% extra ranged dmg or spell locks on the paladin.
So why then do we have our warriors still spec so far into fury to get enrage? Ultimately enrage is barely up unless your warrior is getting focused, and if thats the case hes most likely in D stance or atleast soon to be.
Now obviously no one spec's into fury purely for enrage, if that were the case my arguement would be far too easy. The most notable difference is the loss of piercing howl, it is something that is frustrating to do without, but gaining Conc blow, Last Stand and an extra 10% armor from Toughness is just too good to pass up, given the state of 5's at the moment.
The only other minor difference is the lengthy disarms you cop from some of the smarter warriors who adjust to the fact you have no Weapon Mastery. This is semi-countered by the fact you yourself gain 3 seconds on your disarms so ultimately you can disarm warriors for similar durations as they are disarming you. But it does hurt to get disarmed for 10 seconds. That said, replacing executioner with a weapon chain wouldn't hurt your damage too much.
After playing some top teams with our warrior speced both fury and prot in 5's our team would never go back to 23 in fury. 21 in prot is just so much more clutch. Conc blow notably lands kills that would have otherwise been near misses, and Last Stand clutch heals what would have otherwise been a dead warrior.
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48 comments
Inev Feb 2, 2008 at 9:09 am
+2 votes
Its a known spec, unless he thinks he's unstoppable and INVENTED soul link, I played u in 3's with a pally that needed points for the week (normally have a druid) and your warrior was pretty shut down during intercept / disarms, but obviously that can be allowed with a warglaive rogue. In 3's its **** in 5's it might work, dunno stopped reading after came up with the spec...
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Saz Feb 2, 2008 at 9:16 am
+0 votes
I didnt claim to "invent" it i said rathorse came up with it for us (meaning he didn't see someone else using it and take the idea, this doesnt mean he was the first to ever use it nor claim to be), personally i have never seen it used as im sure alot of other people havent. I wasnt refering to 3's i was refering to 5's (where we dont play with a warglaive rogue). If you can link me to a team that has a warrior using this spec in high end arena please do so and i will apologize for bringing old news to a community that thrives off the current wow pvp scene.
Inev Feb 2, 2008 at 9:28 am
+2 votes
Not sure if there are top teams that use this spec, point I want to make is that any top team warrior is aware of being able to spec like that (old news to the community ;p) but don't.
The only 2 big problems I can see is
1. Losing weapon mastery, 10 seconds is big, its a full ms, and the warrior cant really do anything, only thing he can do is switch to battle / defense with a shield and shield bash heals / pummel or intercept them.
2. Piercing Howl, intercept resist target running away negates the whole point of a target switch, since your not even in range after intercept most of the time lol.
As for enrage, sure its big but if your getting focused / enrage procs you will probably go defensive. It can work, but its not a new spec ;p obviously you will have a very different play style and be more control focused then burst focused as a disarm during burst = gg with ms wearing off.
The only 2 big problems I can see is
1. Losing weapon mastery, 10 seconds is big, its a full ms, and the warrior cant really do anything, only thing he can do is switch to battle / defense with a shield and shield bash heals / pummel or intercept them.
2. Piercing Howl, intercept resist target running away negates the whole point of a target switch, since your not even in range after intercept most of the time lol.
As for enrage, sure its big but if your getting focused / enrage procs you will probably go defensive. It can work, but its not a new spec ;p obviously you will have a very different play style and be more control focused then burst focused as a disarm during burst = gg with ms wearing off.
ronmexicoz Feb 2, 2008 at 9:32 am
+4 votes
In the time leading up to 2.3 many people talked about this type of spec. It never really became popular though simply because you end up spending a ton of points for conc blow and last stand, neither of which is really all that great. This isn't to say the spec is bad. It's a decent enough spec, but its hard to justify it over a more standard fury build.
Saz Feb 2, 2008 at 9:42 am
-1 votes
1. weapon chain.
2. target swaps.
Executioner is meh in 5's 800 armor off a target doesnt win matches. It brings very little to bursted pressure you see in 5's. In 3's where your beating away on a target its a bit more of an asset, but still not 100% necassary.
If a target resists intercept they are probably going to get a good 5-10 yards already which probably means they are in a now average at best position to be focused by your ranged, switching to a better closer target that isnt running would be a much better option.
Im glad you have thought of the flaws in the spec which i already pointed out. And im glad you are able to apply them to bad teams and why the spec wont work for bad players. If this spec was "old news" and everyone was aware of it but chose not to spec it for the 2 reasons u have given. Flaws be rectified by a 10g blacksmithing enchant and a little common sense. I'm pretty sure we would see alot more teams using the spec for its obvious benefits (benefits you fail to mention in your re-itteration of my blog).
2. target swaps.
Executioner is meh in 5's 800 armor off a target doesnt win matches. It brings very little to bursted pressure you see in 5's. In 3's where your beating away on a target its a bit more of an asset, but still not 100% necassary.
If a target resists intercept they are probably going to get a good 5-10 yards already which probably means they are in a now average at best position to be focused by your ranged, switching to a better closer target that isnt running would be a much better option.
Im glad you have thought of the flaws in the spec which i already pointed out. And im glad you are able to apply them to bad teams and why the spec wont work for bad players. If this spec was "old news" and everyone was aware of it but chose not to spec it for the 2 reasons u have given. Flaws be rectified by a 10g blacksmithing enchant and a little common sense. I'm pretty sure we would see alot more teams using the spec for its obvious benefits (benefits you fail to mention in your re-itteration of my blog).
skromzor Feb 2, 2008 at 9:48 am
-2 votes
@ron
I see why you think its a lot of wasted point, because i thought the
exact same thing.... But if the tradeoff for me is an easy one.
I will be picking up s3 mace and putting weapon chain on because
executioner in a 2345 team doesn't do much when half of our targets
have over 8k armor. This negates weapon mastery and to add to that i
get a 13 second (6.5 on warriors) on most rogues.
Because of all the 2345/2346 and even CLC lineups, i am quite often a
target for the other team (against 2346 it's almost ridiculous how easy
it is to keep me in dstance). I get last stand.. with pvp gear on i get
4-5k health back unaffected by ms.
Conc blow is the most amazing talent in all 3 warrior trees bar MS. As
a 2345 team the only thing that stops us getting kills is if the target
gets away and los's or ranges our mage/shaman. Between pally stun/mace
stun/conc blow/intercept, when we call a switch to someone they wont be
moving very far.
The only real tradeoff for me is piercing howl. The amount of times i
hit last stand when i went to piercing howl in the beginning made me
realize how much i used it, but its pretty simple to switch to the
person standing 5yrds away if an intercept resists.
As i said weapon chain negates the disarm and i would take last stand/conc blow over piercing howl anyday.
I see why you think its a lot of wasted point, because i thought the
exact same thing.... But if the tradeoff for me is an easy one.
I will be picking up s3 mace and putting weapon chain on because
executioner in a 2345 team doesn't do much when half of our targets
have over 8k armor. This negates weapon mastery and to add to that i
get a 13 second (6.5 on warriors) on most rogues.
Because of all the 2345/2346 and even CLC lineups, i am quite often a
target for the other team (against 2346 it's almost ridiculous how easy
it is to keep me in dstance). I get last stand.. with pvp gear on i get
4-5k health back unaffected by ms.
Conc blow is the most amazing talent in all 3 warrior trees bar MS. As
a 2345 team the only thing that stops us getting kills is if the target
gets away and los's or ranges our mage/shaman. Between pally stun/mace
stun/conc blow/intercept, when we call a switch to someone they wont be
moving very far.
The only real tradeoff for me is piercing howl. The amount of times i
hit last stand when i went to piercing howl in the beginning made me
realize how much i used it, but its pretty simple to switch to the
person standing 5yrds away if an intercept resists.
As i said weapon chain negates the disarm and i would take last stand/conc blow over piercing howl anyday.
Inev Feb 2, 2008 at 10:19 am
+1 votes
I said I didn't read past the invent the spec part as I'm rather tired and don't feel like reading bs claims.
I made my judgement from the game we actually played against you, where your warrior didn't have a chain? I remember disarming him for 10 seconds and laughing, then laughing at the hunter dying to a warglaive rogue again.
Sorry if I pointed out what you pointed out, ill read it now. As for the target switch to something closer if intercept resists, it kind of negates the whole point of the switch ;/ unless you just switch targets for no apparent reason (which can be applied to bad teams since a good switch wont work for bad players) and don't try to go for a kill. Where a piercing howl could have saved the day and allowed the kill.
Bottom line the spec can work, for 5's its insanely good due to 5s stun and last stand seeing as warrs often get sh it on. But its also very makeup dependent? Say if you ran with a hunter you would gain alot from executioner / howl, as you're switching between cloth targets the majority of the time and don't want a intercept resist as it screws the whole point of your lineup.
I made my judgement from the game we actually played against you, where your warrior didn't have a chain? I remember disarming him for 10 seconds and laughing, then laughing at the hunter dying to a warglaive rogue again.
Sorry if I pointed out what you pointed out, ill read it now. As for the target switch to something closer if intercept resists, it kind of negates the whole point of the switch ;/ unless you just switch targets for no apparent reason (which can be applied to bad teams since a good switch wont work for bad players) and don't try to go for a kill. Where a piercing howl could have saved the day and allowed the kill.
Bottom line the spec can work, for 5's its insanely good due to 5s stun and last stand seeing as warrs often get sh it on. But its also very makeup dependent? Say if you ran with a hunter you would gain alot from executioner / howl, as you're switching between cloth targets the majority of the time and don't want a intercept resist as it screws the whole point of your lineup.
Deci Feb 2, 2008 at 10:20 am
-3 votes
I don't think this build has much promise, improved disarm won't be very strong with the cookiecutter specs of warriors, having no flurry nor endless rage is gonna be a problem for you in terms of rage generation. People get away, often and the limited time you get on them needs to make an abundance of rage.
Inactive Feb 2, 2008 at 3:11 pm
+1 votes
I really don't think Conc blow is that good because it shares DR with intercept and other stuns, if I remember correctly. I don't know, I was never a fan of Conc blow personally but last stand is very good. IMO, get PH. It's too big to give up for conc blow IMO.
I was considering trying out something similar to this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0xdGbqMhdbZVVzZf0tc
Unless you strongly feel even with Conc Blow sharing DR it's a stronger choice than PH, then I may just try it out on one of our lower rated "fun" teams where we don't have to worry about making drastic changes and having some scrubs post some stupid **** about it.
I was considering trying out something similar to this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0xdGbqMhdbZVVzZf0tc
Unless you strongly feel even with Conc Blow sharing DR it's a stronger choice than PH, then I may just try it out on one of our lower rated "fun" teams where we don't have to worry about making drastic changes and having some scrubs post some stupid **** about it.
Romantic Feb 2, 2008 at 6:13 pm
+1 votes
It shares DR with intercept, mace stuns are on a seperate DR. You could also just stun the next guy you see after a target swap, where DR is at 0. Really it's a stun on demand with a 45s cd vs an alternative to hamstring snare.
prs Feb 2, 2008 at 9:12 am
+1 votes
Have any teams taken advantage of your warrior not having enrage yet while playing as prot?
I think thats definitely a huge downfall of this spec. If a war doesnt have enrage I'd have my shaman or lock/mage free cast on him a lot to force him defensive or set up a possibly switch. When a warriors ms/fury you have to commit more to a burst and theirs the consequence of enrage for trying to set up a burst or trying to to dmg a war enough to get him to fall back.
No piercing howl and weap mastery as you stated also kind of sucks. I can see it being viable and the stun being very nice but I think a smart team would abuse the fact that your war doesnt have enrage.
I think thats definitely a huge downfall of this spec. If a war doesnt have enrage I'd have my shaman or lock/mage free cast on him a lot to force him defensive or set up a possibly switch. When a warriors ms/fury you have to commit more to a burst and theirs the consequence of enrage for trying to set up a burst or trying to to dmg a war enough to get him to fall back.
No piercing howl and weap mastery as you stated also kind of sucks. I can see it being viable and the stun being very nice but I think a smart team would abuse the fact that your war doesnt have enrage.
skromzor Feb 2, 2008 at 9:23 am
-3 votes
Take advantage of our warrior not having enrage? That doesnt even make sense. Are you suggesting that if a warrior is speced into enrage people are less likely to target them?
The main concern of warriors at the moment is how squishy they are in zerker stance... as soon as any focus is on them they are forced to dstance almost even before they take any damage at all. There is little to no drawback of putting pressure on another teams warrior enrage or not. By the time the warrior comes out of dstance enrage will have almost no time left because obviously the other team stopped pressuring him.
The main concern of warriors at the moment is how squishy they are in zerker stance... as soon as any focus is on them they are forced to dstance almost even before they take any damage at all. There is little to no drawback of putting pressure on another teams warrior enrage or not. By the time the warrior comes out of dstance enrage will have almost no time left because obviously the other team stopped pressuring him.
prs Feb 2, 2008 at 9:33 am
+1 votes
Theres a difference. What you're talking about sounds like your warrior just getting focused on. Which people will do to peel the warrior off a team mate or just cause warriors are easier to kill now.
What I'm suggesting is that while focusing a different target on ur team the other teams shaman/lock/mage whatever can free cast on your warrior to peel him or set him up for a switch without any worry of enraging him.
What I'm suggesting is that while focusing a different target on ur team the other teams shaman/lock/mage whatever can free cast on your warrior to peel him or set him up for a switch without any worry of enraging him.
Deci Feb 2, 2008 at 10:26 am
+1 votes
Enrage doesn't give an defensive edge, it gives an offensive edge. Doing a half-hearted attempt at killing their warrior will usually not make them switch to defensive stance unless it gets dangerous. A warrior with plenty of rage is bound to kill someone preeetty fast.
skromzor Feb 2, 2008 at 10:35 am
-3 votes
Deci... stop talking.
No one gets flurry, no one gets endless rage, no warrior is going to live through a good 5s team's damage if he isn't quick on his dstances. When you see a shaman casting lightning bolt and a warlock immolating you you don't think "hmmm is this going to be a half-hearted attempt or am i going to take an intercept really soon and probably die" you switch to dstance before the damage even hits.
There is almost no difference in damage between this spec and 35/23/3.
No one gets flurry, no one gets endless rage, no warrior is going to live through a good 5s team's damage if he isn't quick on his dstances. When you see a shaman casting lightning bolt and a warlock immolating you you don't think "hmmm is this going to be a half-hearted attempt or am i going to take an intercept really soon and probably die" you switch to dstance before the damage even hits.
There is almost no difference in damage between this spec and 35/23/3.
faction Feb 2, 2008 at 9:16 am
+2 votes
Can definitely see the value of last stand in 5's, prs brings up a good point though
props for trying something different anyway... yeah they didn't INVENT the spec but has anyone else actually tried it?
props for trying something different anyway... yeah they didn't INVENT the spec but has anyone else actually tried it?
ronmexicoz Feb 2, 2008 at 9:33 am
+1 votes
I know a certain challenger who spent some time using it for 2 dps 2v2.
Deci Feb 2, 2008 at 9:49 am
+2 votes
Get Defiance instead of imp sunder, it has expertise rating now. That isn't half bad for upping your damage.
Inev Feb 2, 2008 at 10:25 am
+2 votes
6 expertise = 1.5% dodge and 1.5% parry reduction
3% avoidance, almost completely factors out the 4% -dodge from wep mastery
3% avoidance, almost completely factors out the 4% -dodge from wep mastery
Virtua Feb 2, 2008 at 11:00 am
+1 votes
i actually used this spec in s1 skrom, when i was playing with meshif ( lol) i needed all the hp ( full stamina gems) for 2v2(he never really juked till we made a push for glad, so he got lockd alot). we got gladiator ect so it worked out. the tradeoff for anti-rng is good enough to never lose to 2dps and it doesnt effect lock/healer or druid/dps comps(albet better druid rushdown with x2 huge stuns)
anway i approve of this spec and use it on my friends warrior when we play war/shm 2's
oh expect to see the hw team on the 7th! (hopefully we can play CLC b4 they reroll)
anway i approve of this spec and use it on my friends warrior when we play war/shm 2's
oh expect to see the hw team on the 7th! (hopefully we can play CLC b4 they reroll)
SPSTM2 Feb 2, 2008 at 11:05 am
+1 votes
I really like this idea, except for one thing that bothers me. What DR does Concussive blow share with? Everything else about this build is completely justified. =)
Oh and your spec in the fillers are terrible. I'm not gonna just tell you what to spec, but you gotta be joking me if you believe you took the best talents possible.
And sunder can be as good as expertise because % is still % at the end of the day while guaranteed rage off a skill is guaranteed. However having said that, 6 expertise is nothing to laugh at.
^_^ I'll definitely steal this idea. Thanks Saz. Oh, and that's assuming Conc Blow doesn't blow chunks on what it DRs with. Sadly as a rogue, I feel like it should suck just because I can see this being too amazing with certain comps and just replace rogues T_T
Oh and your spec in the fillers are terrible. I'm not gonna just tell you what to spec, but you gotta be joking me if you believe you took the best talents possible.
And sunder can be as good as expertise because % is still % at the end of the day while guaranteed rage off a skill is guaranteed. However having said that, 6 expertise is nothing to laugh at.
^_^ I'll definitely steal this idea. Thanks Saz. Oh, and that's assuming Conc Blow doesn't blow chunks on what it DRs with. Sadly as a rogue, I feel like it should suck just because I can see this being too amazing with certain comps and just replace rogues T_T
Globals Feb 2, 2008 at 11:44 am
+0 votes
Weapon chain is a decent answer, b/c i would have to disarm a warrior every single time it was up if they didn't go past 5 in fury.  It's hard to picture myself using revenge in pvp, you might want imp sunder and defiance. Sweeping strikes is a big loss too, invisible pet damage can be really good, not to mention howl. I assume conc blow is on dr with mace/intercept, making it not quite so powerful when you compare it to a 9% passive conc blow. Enrage also does win games, our pain supp usually gets used on my warrior when we are going for a kill and they counter by switching to me, so I can stay in zerker with enrage and it makes the kill a guarantee usually.
The spec is completely viable, but I doubt I would be switching to it anytime soon.
The spec is completely viable, but I doubt I would be switching to it anytime soon.
Romantic Feb 2, 2008 at 6:20 pm
+2 votes
"I assume conc blow is on dr with mace/intercept, making it not quite so powerful when you compare it to a 9% passive conc blow."
How does a warrior with a top rating know so little about his class?
How does a warrior with a top rating know so little about his class?
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