Blizzard doesn't understand Balance.

Kalgan, Tigole and co. are too prideful and thick-headed to even consider someone more experienced to balance their game for them.

 

Perhaps, but if they're really serious about this esport thing they should consider bringing some other people in.  

What the heck do a bunch of ex-raiders know about real competitive gaming?
 

 

Nothing. But they THINK they know everything, and that's all that matters to them. Perception is reality.

 

i think they purposely imbalance because thats the only thing that
changes one season from another.  They want differentiation each season
to some degree, and to achieve that they have to change the balance and
prefered makeups from one season to another.  Its the only thing i can
come up with to explain why balance can be so bad sometimes where they
allow it like they intend it to be that way.



kalgan cant be this bad at his job...i mean it HAS to be intended.  Nobody can be that clueless and out of touch about a game they design and are in charge of.

 

I'm not sure TJ, I really think it's just cluelessness.  Some classes have been bad since arena started, while others have been unmolested by the nerf bat.

the ideal thing would be to avoid major nerfs, and try to buff everyone up to the same level.  It doesn't appear blizzard knows this.
 

 

**** blog. Priests are overpowered right? God you are ******* thick.

 

Fat people usually have thick skulls so yes, this comment is accurate. +1

 

Yeah im fat with 12% bf, moron. Face it, your blog is ****. Way to regurgitate the same mundane balance crap, with a sprinkling of meaningless statistics.

 

lol, you are clueless.  You are so mad you don't know who you're replying to at this point.  You need a timeout.

 

 

definitely gotta agree with vir here

 

 

 

QQ Priests sure as hell arent underpowered right now, and arguably OP'd,

but droods are still out of f'in control....despite 2 patches that were supposed to nerf them ;p

no way Kalgan/Dev's can be this stupid on purpose w/ balance...it has to be intended imbalance.

 

This will never happen. World of Warcraft will continue down it's path until something big happens. Talking about this is pointless, because Blizzard will never be convinced. I hate it too.

 

 

™

 

I don't think Blizzard don't understand what balance is; I think they have difficulties translating the concept of balance into game terms.

And I quite understand why.

WoW is a relatively complicated system to balance - small changes can have huge synergistic effects; large changes even more so. Blizzard have opted to go for the path of making a few small changes gradually so as not to upset the boat too much; in their eyes, I suspect they see the game as relatively balanced and a dramatic unbalancing change would be far worse than a minor one for their future income. The other thing to bear in mind is that they are probably not devoting much manpower to it at the moment as the next expansion is going to promptly kick out the support for all the balancing work they did in BC.

My suspicion is that if you took any of the backseat balancers on this site and let them have at WoW the majority of the WoW population would scream bloody murder, and complain how unbalanced the changes are.

 

i think youre wrong, and you way overcredit the difficulty of balancing PvP....now if kalgan and Co. have to fit every PvP change in w/o sacrificing anything from PvE, other PvP venues then sure that can be tough.  But they dont seem to care too much about the other venues, and balancing more or less around PvP Arena exclusively isnt as hard as youre pretending, especially when its 1 spec for every class.

i mean i really dont see how you can look at WoW right now and be like "this is balanced"....only if you play a Druid, Warrior, or some other very populated, represented class.  thats what makes me laugh more than anything, people actually have convinced themself or been brainwashed things are currently relatively balanced like it cant get any better, and its f'in nuts.

i dont know if hes got some of y'all get the idea that people cant do any better, do you realize how bad balance currently is?  and i'm not just talking about arena :P

 

WOW is WAY better balance than Street Fighter.

Watch any SF2 tournament and tell me the character presentation is equal.

Even in games like SC and WC3, with only 3-4 race to balance, go into any given tournament and every patch will have a low tier race.  And these games are not spectator friendly at all, it is entertaining if you understand what is going on, otherwise you just see 100 units zerg each other.

 

You are totally wrong. SC and WC3 are very spectator friendly with good shout casters. My personal experience was watching the blizzcon 1 (or 2?) years ago. The SC shout caster explained possible strats the player will do, explained what direction he could take to counter a certain strat, and started going nutts when fights started. It was the most fun I have ever had watching a game. I hadn't played SC in like 5 years, and never played it seriously, so I was a complete noob.

WoW on the other hand is impossible to explain every strat and say exactly what is going on because the 3v3 has 6 people to talk about at 1 time. Matches are too short to go into much depth, and counter comping = no fun whatsoever to watch. WoW should never become an E-Sport.

 

WOW is WAY better balance than Street Fighter.

Which one?  Many games in the street fighter series were much better balanced than World of Warcraft.  Even games with glaring imbalances (Chun-Li in sfa2) were still more balanced than WoW is.


Watch any SF2 tournament and tell me the character presentation is equal.

A quick google search yielded the following results of SSF2T at the 2007 evo tourny.

1st: Tokido (Vega)
2nd: John Choi (Ryu, Sagat)
3rd: Graham Wolfe (Balrog, Vega)
4th: Afrolegends (Dee Jay, Balrog)
5th: David Sirlin (Honda, Bison)
5th: NKI (Chun)
7th: Alex Valle (Ryu)
7th: Nuki (Chun)

There are obviously some characters who are over represented, but on the whole, I'd say SSF2T is more balanced than world of warcraft.  When you consider that Blizzard can patch WoW for balance every month, the poor representation of some classes is even more daming.



Even in games like SC and WC3, with only 3-4 race to balance, go into any given tournament and every patch will have a low tier race.  And these games are not spectator friendly at all, it is entertaining if you understand what is going on, otherwise you just see 100 units zerg each other.

I agree.  I think for a video game to make it as an e-sport, it's going to have to be very watch-able.  The best candidates for this are sports games, simply because people know the rulesets already.  Games like Starcraft might make for great competition, but even causual players probably find the games unwatchable.  

Overall, I'd say the balance in World of Warcraft is pretty bad for an e-sport.  The fact that you have to put a good 300 hours in if you want to select a new class, makes the lack of balance worse than in a game like Street Fighter where everyone starts on even ground.

 

 

That is like 8 characters out of 16, and having ONE player on top 8 doesn't mean anything.  A shaman placed first in the US regionals.

 

It's 8 characters listed, along with the top 8 players....There is quite a bit of variety there.  Granted there is no T.Hawk, but it's still pretty good.

 

 

Why would anybody watch someone play a sports game when they could watch someone play sports?

 

Good question.  The only real reason would be if the players themselves were somehow interesting.  

Overall I think its going to be hard to get people who don't play a video game to be interested in watching a video game.  

Video games don't include the violence or the human drama you see in other sports, so it's a tough sell.  When you talk specifically about WoW you add that onto a ruleset that most people don't understand and action that is hard to follow, and you have a game that it not at all spectator friendly even for people who play it. 
 

 

It should be noted that although you can get the gist of what's happening in the first few minutes of your first xxxxball game or any other sport, you won't really enjoy it that much unless you get into it.

While there's a reason people don't watch esports, there's also a reason why they don't watch the ordinary kind either. People can be entertained by a soap opera they're just watching for the first time even though they've no clue whatsoever about previous events or even what's happening right then. You didn't start playing WoW with the knowledge to write a wikipedia-article about it's gameplay.

You just need a good game, that's all.

 

It should be noted that although you can get the gist of what's happening in the first few minutes of your first xxxxball game or any other sport, you won't really enjoy it that much unless you get into it.

Yes and no.  Hockey, Basketball, and of course boxing you can pick up really quickly.  American Football is a bit more hard to follow.

While there's a reason people don't watch esports, there's also a reason why they don't watch the ordinary kind either. People can be entertained by a soap opera they're just watching for the first time even though they've no clue whatsoever about previous events or even what's happening right then. You didn't start playing WoW with the knowledge to write a wikipedia-article about it's gameplay. 

No, but I think there is something to certain sports having a lower barrier to entry when it comes to watching them, like I mentioned above boxing and basketball are good examples.


You just need a good game, that's all.

I think for esports it is going to take a bit more than that.  Chess is a good game, but I don't watch it.

 

agree. I think for a video game to make it as an e-sport, it's going
to have to be very watch-able. The best candidates for this are sports
games, simply because people know the rulesets already. Games like
Starcraft might make for great competition, but even causual players
probably find the games unwatchable.

Uh, as I understand it, almost everyone in South Korea knows about starcraft and I'd say everyone knows who Boxer is. Casuals enjoy watching it on TV every day, EVEN people who have never touched the game before watch it or go to the events, of all ages, to cheer on their fav players.

 

 

Yeah, starcraft is not spectator friendly. That is why televised starcraft are among the most viewed shows in south korea. Ming, please, dont talk about starcraft. My grandmother knows more about SC than you do. Ps, tell me when the last balancing patch in sc was, and what race it made lwo tier? Idiot.

 

Every game that has different players and variety will be unbalanced. You mentioned Street Fighter, no SF isn't balanced and it never will be, any of them. Every SF has a certain tier of play, for instance in SF Third Strike top tier characters are Yun and Chun Li. They are the Druid/Warrior of SF 3strike. The only games that will be balanced is where nobody has a counter like in Counter-strike, everything is equal and it comes down to reaction, aim and teamwork to pull wins.

Blizzard doesn't understand balance? Can you seriously be any more ignorant. I would like you to TRY and balance a game with NINE classes. It's close to impossible but they try and thats what counts.





jay[st] #sealteam us.gamesurge.net

 

 Every SF has a certain tier of play, for instance in SF Third Strike top tier characters are Yun and Chun Li. They are the Druid/Warrior of SF 3strike. The only games that will be balanced is where nobody has a counter like in Counter-strike, everything is equal and it comes down to reaction, aim and teamwork to pull wins. 

I'm not saying that SF is perfectly balanced.  I am saying its balance is much better than that of World of Warcraft.   Really, if you dig through the capcom fighting games, some were balanced exceptionally well considering you don't really get to patch them like you can a MMO.  The original Marvel Super Heros would be a good example.



 

 

The only thing I agree with this article on is that I that can't stand watching Arena Videos. WoW just isn't fun to watch.

You're wrong on the class/specc/gear issue though, dead wrong. Once you have an environment such as the TR you have a balanced game. Preferential items are used to provide an edge, but at the end you all have access to the same gear. Class is also arguably your decision but if you disprove of some combinations vs. others, then bring more than one composition to play with you like all tournament teams do.

Point 2 is also irrelevant. Players pick up games because they are fun. When I decide to go to the store to buy a game the last thing on my mind is Wow, this is an popular game for esports right now.

 

You're wrong on the class/specc/gear issue though, dead wrong. Once you have an environment such as the TR you have a balanced game.

Exactly, but most players aren't on the TR, so when they think 'arena' they have to deal with the class/spec/gear issues.  The arena on live _should_work like TR, where you basically pick your gear, spec, racials, etc when going in, and then have them removed when you leave.  


Point 2 is also irrelevant. Players pick up games because they are fun. When I decide to go to the store to buy a game the last thing on my mind is Wow, this is an popular game for esports right now.

So you don't think a player who picked up World of Warcraft to raid might resent getting arena based nerfs because blizzard has changed the focus of the game?

 

Show me how they are doing this? If you read anything relevant to research what you're talking about you would have read through the blue postings talking about being balanced through 5v5, not 3v3 or 2v2. Although they are supporting the 3v3 system currently as seen in the TR, their original intent was to work on 5v5 because of the events they were hosting.

All of this translates into upcoming changes.

As for the gear you talk about, rewards are earned based on more than time invested. Originally 300+ hours was required. Season 4 and on should showcase Blizzards ability to recognize problems and attempt to correct them. Season 1-4 should all be considered pilot seasons for the upcoming expansion seasons to follow.

 

Show me how they are doing this? If you read anything relevant to research what you're talking about

I have.

you would have read through the blue postings talking about being balanced through 5v5, not 3v3 or 2v2. Although they are supporting the 3v3 system currently as seen in the TR, their original intent was to work on 5v5 because of the events they were hosting.

I'm pretty sure I read they went from supporting 5v5 (because more players = more balance) to 3v3 because 5v5 was un-watchable and they felt 3v3 played better.


 That is nice, but I'm not really seeing anything coming in s4 that is going to fix some of the lower end classes.  Maybe there is and it hasn't been announced, but I'm under the impression that not much will change until WOTLK.

I can understand that this is their first year doing this, but it really seems like they don't have any direction.

 

 

I am baffled at your inability to mount a logical argument.

 

Looks more like you were baffled about what to reply with after I pwned you in that last post.  GG blizz fanboi.

PS-Saying "OH SEASONS 1-4 ARE JUST A WARM UP" is horse **** when you've got 7 million subscribers paying monthly fees.  Tell your butt buddies at blizzard to get their **** together.
 

 

Pwned? You fail to realize that there is a world outside of what you're viewing. AN MMO IS JUST THAT. MASSIVE. Do you understand the concepts you're talking about?

1-70 is something everyone does in an MMO and its fun in its own right. Get off the beaten horse, it is long dead.

As for seasons 1-4, they took from other games and attempted to create something great in their own game. What you're not looking at is that it takes time to get concepts together and moving in the direction you want. If I had a dime for every fan boi post like yours talking about how they can change the world then I would be beyond 8 digits rich.

You have shown nothing except for a set of excessively loose statistics that you've drawn conclusions from.

If you want a logical argument you might want to try using mine. Get a more focused development team moving toward actual results in the PvP of the game. There are many devs of blizzard working in many different areas as well as on other projects. 7 million subscribers with what % of them focused on PvP? GET ME NUMBERS BEFORE YOU MAKE CLAIMS LIKE THIS.

I do nothing in the game but PvP; It is sad you can't see outside the PvP spectrum of WoW though.

 

Pwned? You fail to realize that there is a world outside of what you're viewing. AN MMO IS JUST THAT. MASSIVE. Do you understand the concepts you're talking about?

1-70 is something everyone does in an MMO and its fun in its own right. Get off the beaten horse, it is long dead.

Really?  You can find plenty of people who say 1-70 isn't fun.  Hell I'd even say a majority.  You're throwing things out there to back up your argument even if they're patently false.

As for seasons 1-4, they took from other games and attempted to create something great in their own game. What you're not looking at is that it takes time to get concepts together and moving in the direction you want. If I had a dime for every fan boi post like yours talking about how they can change the world then I would be beyond 8 digits rich. 
 
As I said in an earlier post, you can cut blizzard some slack for seasons 1 and 2, but its been over a year and the arena isn't in much better shape than it was when it started.   You can rant about 'fan boi posts', but really 'fan boi posts' like this one were the M.O of Furor and friends during EQ.


You have shown nothing except for a set of excessively loose statistics that you've drawn conclusions from.

There have been plenty of statistics posted here on gameriot and in other locations from people who comb through the arena rankings and ratings, and you always see the same classes in the bottom 3.   I don't know if you are a blizzard fan, or just the janitor at blizzard HQ, but it is way past the time where arena should be balanced better than it is.

The TR is actually the best set of statistics you could look at since it displays class balance without gear inflating or deflating people.  It's obvious the bottom 3 classes are lacking, especially the paladin in 3s.  

 

Really? You can find plenty of people who say 1-70 isn't fun.
Hell I'd even say a majority. You're throwing things out there to
back up your argument even if they're patently false

Grats on continuing a game you hated since day 1 and then QQing about leveling just like everyone else had to do. You fail at seeing beyond your own tunnel vision once more.

As I said in an earlier post, you can cut blizzard some slack for
seasons 1 and 2, but its been over a year and the arena isn't in much
better shape than it was when it started. You can rant about 'fan boi
posts', but really 'fan boi posts' like this one were the M.O of Furor
and friends during EQ.

The balancing has been obscenely effective throughout the past 4 seasons and that is undeniable. Just because the statics you want to throw out are skewed doesn't mean they are the correct thing to look at let alone that those have always been the numbers throughout the seasons. Druids didn't show up really until the end of season 2. I wonder why? Balancing. Sorry it isn't at the rate you're demanding.

Here, let me teach you a lesson since you don't know how MMO's work. They take formulas throughout the PvP spectrum of the game and analyze them to see how well they are balanced. You're acting as if they sit there with a drawing board going, "How can a paladin be better? Well, the forum posters said to give them 10k more health. We should give it a shot." Why doesn't this work all of the time? It is because not everything on paper is exacted properly in real life. Thats why they go back to the drawing board and it takes time. The longer you wait the more statistics you can verify your issue with. If Blizzard fixed every issue the way they are proposing the game would fail because it would be updating every other day trying to implement new ideas and fixes before analyzing the proper data and equations necessary to make a change.

Dispute that all you want, but you can't disagree with it.

The TR is actually the best
set of statistics you could look at since it displays class balance
without gear inflating or deflating people. It's obvious the bottom 3
classes are lacking, especially the paladin in 3s.

Again you obviously know nothing about statistics. The TR is a closed realm of PvPers paying money to partake in. In statistics, you get proper numbers by generating more results. The TR is a very select group making it irrelevant versus the main ladders. The ladders provide the best feedback purely because of how large they are, not because of the talent they may or may not contain. Glad to teach you something today.

 

 

You're idiocy never ceases to amaze me. Have you ever taken a college level math course? What you're talking about isn't a statistic, it is an ideal you're seeking to provide you an answer that isn't there. Let me repeat this because I don't think it was clear enough: That is how MMO's work. Actual statistics, not ideal. You can not and will not dispute that fact because there is absolutely nothing disputable in the field of mathematics.

You think I am the internet tool is what I find funny. For every one finger you point at someone, there is 3 pointing right back at yourself. You may want to take a brilliant look at that comment. Good luck in the real world and bravo on the indulgence given to your own ego.

 

The real world is treating me very well, way to back down from your previous statements.  I especially liked the one about statistics which proves YOU'VE never taken a college level statistics course.

Just hang yourself dude and get it over with.
 

 

Backing down? What world do you live in? You listen to absolutely nothing I say which I find as no surprise. You're complete tool in every sense of the word. I stand behind everything I say because I use logic. A logic apparently you can't comprehend because it is so black and white that it isn't what you want it to be. Insulting you doesn't mean I am backing down, it just means I am broadcasting your intellect level which apparently never ceases to keep plummeting.

Let me repeat this because I don't think it was clear enough:

A desperate man baking down from his words right there! My God, /wrists. Am I right?

"The real world is treating me very well"

Great job on more self gratification! Let me guess though. You're an undergraduate living with your parents or at the school who doesn't even have a job because he thinks working full-time would prohibit him from doing well in school/WoW and doesn't have a girlfriend. Reminisce in that observation because it is probably more accurate than you can imagine.

 

Just saw the link from sirlin's site ( nice job Vir!), so I guess I am late to this party but I will join anyway.

You can't use statistics alone to balance game design and blizzard doesnt use them on their own to balance any aspect of WOW. You arguing that live realms are a far better statistical representation of arena than TR is weak. Its comaprable to conducting a study on arthritis in farmers: You have 2 pools of people: A large group of farmers, and an even more massive group with farmers and mechanics and taxi drivers as well. Which group is ideal for a statistical study on your topic?

 

Irrelevant to be honest, you're aiming the wrong way with that analogy. All gear is relevant but irrelevant at the same time. They just improve upon the pure statistics. The only difference is variables such as set bonus' generally. Those also can be added in with more equations.

There really isn't a stark difference of those small numbers of 1-490 resilience. Or 800 shadow damage compared to 1000. You will get a different number for balance, but it will be minuscule compared to the overall statistics you're generating. The numbers you seek in statistics are averages. They get better as you gain numbers.

Your arguement would be correct though if I took a statistics of WoW players and then DAoC players. Why would I do that to balance WoW? TR just can't generate averages as well as live. 90% of the players I face on live in Bloodlust have almost if not all s3 gear and are throwing in changes to it such as PvE gear. It is more balanced than it is being credited for.

 

blah blah blah.

nonesense nonsense nonsense with no mathematical reality but a lot of analogies.

You really must work for Blizzard.  

Look, it's really simple.  The best wow PvP'ers got together on the TR, and only one paladin was used in the top 20 teams.  It's not hard to figure out that is ****** up.  

 

 

Gear want the only thing I was referring to. Absolutely horrible players are outliers to the data so are useless comps just meant to **** around. Balancing should be done where people are aiming to win, and use the best possible strats not where there are so many outliers in the data.