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by Arirang, Level 35
Last updated at October 15, 2009, 1:38 pm
When a pros play a hero in a league, they have optimized that hero to the core.  Item build, skill build and general animation the hero makes.  Everything is accounted for.  I will be touching on the effective skill point distribution in this entry.  It's quite an effort to level up in DotA, and you always want to have the maximum value for your point spent.  One of the first question you should have of the hero is this: Can this hero afford a stat build?  If so, is it worth it?

 

Note: To me, skill and spell are the same thing.  Skill point, spell point, level point.  All the same as well.  I hope that helps on killing some possible confusion.


When first starting out DotA, people like pick all the available skills and spells possible.  They often don't bother putting points into stats until they absolutely have to.  And this is not a bad thing for a lot of heroes out there.  But it is definitely not the most optimal play for certain heroes.  Just mindlessly distributing points isn't good enough.  Hero optimization is one of key differences of a bad player and a good player.  I do mean bad players instead casuals because a player can devote over fifty hours a week to DotA and it's still possible that he/she sucks (sadly, playing DotA for 5 years does not justify your choice of going stats and march on Tinker either). 

I suppose one of the reasons why stats are underrated is because you don't have a tooltip saying the full benefits of getting total of 6 stats like spells would.  It being passive also doesn't help.  You can't really "use it (via activation)" although you are always "using it".  It's a subtle difference that really matters.

 

To give a better understanding of stats' power.  Consider this:  When a hero levels, he/she often gains around total of 5-6 stats.  So, if you were to invest a point into stats which adds another 6, it's as if you have a level edge on enemy stat-wise.  Enemy gained around 6 stat gain per level.  You gained 12.  So yeah, it's a pretty big deal.

 


"But I'm missing my cool new ability!!"

You might be missing an ability.  But is that ability worth a point?  You see, stats set a bar (standard) to spells.  If some are deemed worse in value in comparison to stats, then stats are taken as an alternative.  The thing is, stats are actually quite high in value.  So the spells and skills of the heroes must have even higher value to be taken over stats.

Here are some heroes that can afford to have a stat build: Juggernaut, Sven and Spectre.
And I'll go over these heroes explaining how they can fashion a stat build.  Once you understand the raionale, it becomes easy and you can apply your knowledge to all the heroes.  The same question, "can this hero afford a stat build?  If so, is it worth it?"





Sven

Sven is easy to figure out.  He has a target AOE stun spell which is high priority.

You obviously don't want cleave early in the game for two reasons: One, your damage is so low in early levels that cleave adds little to your strength.  And second, your cleave does contribute to pushing the lane which isn't something you would normally like early game.  So you often do not take the cleave until it is in later stage of the game until you can actually pump some threatening damage.

Warcry is an interesting spell.  The difference between level 4 warcry and level 1 warcry is rather minimal.  The big difference is really the cooldown and armor while the movement buff stays the same.  You can either take it, or not take it.  It's really up to you.  Often times, the first point of the skill/spell usually grants the most value per point spent.  This is because it is the difference between nothing to something.  The value of this skill plummets once the first point is spent.  And therefore you should question if the next three points are worth spending into over stats.





Jugg

Jugg is interesting because while he is able to afford a stat build.  It's possible for him to take other paths.  But it is usually much more standard to have a stat build.  His spin is definitely high priority.  However, one of common mistakes of Jugg's point distribution is the early takings of his crit.  And I think that's because people just love to see him jump and slash down in 90 degree angle with red text flying.  It looks cool.  But in means of effectiveness at early levels, it's questionable.  Jugg doesn't do nearly enough damage in early game for it to be effective and majority of your early game DPS comes from blade fury anyway.  It is advised that you hold the crit until later.  The healing wards usually have better presence in latter stage of the game as well.

Stats give this hero the HP, MP, damage and everything good.  But it's also important to note that it gives that small boost of attack speed which this hero really needs for his ultimate to be most effective.  Every bit counts, it really does.





Spec

Spec used to be a pretty standard stat hero before her dispersion change.  I've chosen this hero as an example because she isn't really easy to figure out like the other two.  It involves a bit more thinking and reasoning.  One thing to be noted here is that I am not going out of my way trying to make stat build work.  But rather, it's the question of "is it worth it over stats?" 

Let's look at her dagger.  The first level of any spell is usually the most important.  So that's granted.  The second point gives her more damage, and 4% boost.  The third point gives her more damage and 5% boost.  But the 4th point gives her again, only 4% more boost with addition of damage.  Now, the damage is a steady 50 increase per level.  Whereas the movement speed difference is 5%-4%-5%-4%, see the pattern?  Now, you question if it's worth taking that last point because you've already taken the meatiest part of the meal.  Can we throw it away now? 

It really depends on the game and the heroes you are against.  But let's see why we take dagger in the first place.  All good things aside, it's really for one main reason; chasing power.  So then, the question becomes "is level 3 dagger sufficient for chasing?  Or is it not?"  You get the idea.  The decision is up to you.

Another skill to look at is desolate.  And this skill has a lot to debate for.  It's little hard to evaluate the exact usefulness of this skill because it's really situational.  As you can imagine,
it's not something you can easily measure.  There are usually two sides on this.  One side views this skill as more than excellent will gladly max it over stats.  Some are more skeptical, only taking one point because it gives most value per point (note that first point of desolate gives 15 whereas it only adds 10 more damage per level).

Stats are actually higher in value to Spectre than maybe most other heroes out there thanks to dispersion.  The more HP she has, the more she can reflect back.  It gives this hidden potential DPS along with increased survivability. 



Homework

 

Now you guys have an insight to how to get the most out of your skill point.  It's simple, right?  It shouldn't be tough.  Let's put that knowledge to use then.  Here's a little homework for you guys:

Make the most effective and efficient skill build for Nerubian Weaver.  You must include rationale for taking such route.  You are allowed to include items to justify your reasoning.  There's usually no ultimate "one build".  But I'm sure you guys can come up with a build that can fit most games.  For you HoN players, do the same for Madman. 

I'm interested to see what kind of build you guys are going to come up with.  I will post mine next week while I comment on yours on this entry.  Make me proud!!

     
34 comments
Opet
Opet Oct 15, 2009 at 1:56 pm
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Catscratch
Catscratch Oct 15, 2009 at 2:29 pm
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Madbad:

S/BR
S/BR
BR
S
BR
S
BR
S
B(ult)
G
B(ult)
G
G
G
+
B(ult)
+++++++++

You picked a hero thats a bit game dependent imo,  like, in most games i'd probably push rank2 ult farther back, maybe 14-15, but if you're in a game with nymph or an arcane ring or two getting r2 ult at 11 is feasible.

Whether you get stalk or barrel roll first is lane dependant, if you're controlling the lane barrel roll first, but against some lanes stalk can prevent a lot of needless damage if you get swiftbladed or something equally cheesy like a slow oriented level 1 gank.

Maxing barrel roll first should be pretty obvious, as it improves in stun duration, range, and damage with levels, while stalk only improves cooldown with a negligible increase in damage.

I don't think i'm too far off of whatever you think the "optimal" madbad build is, if you throw some stats in their earlier instead of stalk i'm pretty sure you could make the argument for stalk cooldown reduction as well as you could for extra mana.

A hero with a little more buzz around their skill builds like magmus/sand king might have been more interesting to hear your thoughts on

Or maybe i'm just a terribad and i should just follow guides
guess i'll find out
Arirang
Arirang Oct 15, 2009 at 10:43 pm
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Hmm...I like when you get your ult.  But for different reasons.

You can be more creative with SK/Magmus.  I suppose the big factor is if you are against a melee hero or not.  Other than that factor, rest are pretty standard.
poega
poega Oct 15, 2009 at 3:30 pm
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Weaver: (As I remember him)

1Succu
Watcher
Succu
Stats
5Succu
Stats
Succu
Gemini
Gemini
10ulti
ulti
gemini
gemini
Watchers+stats


Going.....radi:D
Uthgar
Uthgar Oct 15, 2009 at 3:48 pm
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I enjoy seeing blogs like this. Games should be heralded more and more as a competitive medium or as a series of challenges instead of being called the time killer that the media loves to abuse. Games can teach and improve many skills as well as develop robust critical thinking skills that can be applied to many things in the real world. It just takes people to realize this and then utilize it to teach the developing generation.

Oh I would do the homework but I play LOL not HON:S
elaglo
elaglo Oct 15, 2009 at 7:26 pm
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wow uthgar that really just hurt me inside to see you playing LoL man that game is so trashy =(.
Uthgar
Uthgar Oct 15, 2009 at 10:59 pm
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Your crazy. Its infinitely better than dota. It takes out all the long drawn out parts of it and makes games fast paced and fun.

The only ****ty thing is all this grinding they are trying to incorporate... lets hope they dont go through with it.

Do you have a beta account?
Lubgrub
Lubgrub Oct 15, 2009 at 5:38 pm
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Weaver

Shukuchi
Geminate Attack
Shukuchi
Watcher
Shukuchi
Time Lapse
Shukuchi
Geminate Attack
Geminate Attack
Geminate Attack
Time Lapse
watchers+stats

Early Shukuchi+Geminate Attack makes weaver amazing early game imo; he's impossible to kill, and able to put constant pressure on enemy heroes (and dd+geminate early game=gg). I'm a big fan of buriza and radiance on weaver, both work incredibly well with his abils, and time lapse+Shukuchi make hp items much less necessary.
Arirang
Arirang Oct 15, 2009 at 6:06 pm
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I like how you take geminate pretty late.  And yeah, I like those items as well.  I'd probably prefer MKB over buriza a lot of times though.
Digestive
Digestive Oct 15, 2009 at 5:50 pm
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Lol. You actually think that the stat will make ulti do more damage than crit whilst Juggernaut ulti. at a 36% proc rate and you get, lets say 4 hits, you are more than likely to get 1 crit, perhaps 2. that is a 25% increase in damage with one crit, or 50 PERCENT MORE DAMAGE with 2 crits ... Stats alone is not gonna give you one more hit in at level6 ulti, and your hits will do abit more damage. now that is perhaps a 5% damage increased on ulti. tough break, math owned you..
Arirang
Arirang Oct 15, 2009 at 5:56 pm
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I think you are mistaken..

First, omnislash is a fixed damage ult.  Each slash deals fixed damage.  And with enough attack speed, you are able to squeeze in an autoattack in between these slashes.  And that is what makes omnislash really powerful. It is within these intervals where autoattacks happen where crit can occur. 

So when I say stats help do more damage, I meant it in a way that it can help the autoattacks happen in between the intervals.
Snuffy
Snuffy Oct 16, 2009 at 4:56 am
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math owned you? except you're ******* RETARDED as **** and have no idea how game mechnics work, shut the **** up you dumb ******* ****** and go kill yourself
Digestive
Digestive Oct 16, 2009 at 9:10 pm
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I dont know how game mechanics work?
NoneNoneAs you can see in the graph, for a rank ulti to give you another extra hit you will need 60 PERCENT BONUS ATTACK SPEED!!! If I place 5 points (I am level 10, 4 points in spin, 1 in ulti, 5 in stats) I just get 10 PERCENT. that means If I even managed to farm a treads in the time I farmed level 10 (If you even go treads!) I am still 15 PERCENT SHORT OF AN EXTRA HIT!!! Also I cannot have crit maxed until level 15. I cannot have ward maxed until LEVEL 21! You cannot seriously mean that this is ideal. But hey the +10 extra damage every hit after 5 points, on those 3 ulti hits that is 30extra damage, assuming the hero has no armor. after armor it is perhaps 22 damage. A crit would be more than that. So yes, math owned him, and Snuffy you just made a fool of yourself.
shuror
shuror Oct 17, 2009 at 10:04 am
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Smart guy doesn't know agi gives aspd.

The big ******* point isn't the damage, It's the increased survivability from Str and improved mana pool from int. In games where you don't buy battlefury it actually counts.

The best build is: BF,stats,BF,stats,BF,ult,BF,ward...,ult,ward,crit...,ult,crit,stats.... Ward>crit.
Digestive
Digestive Oct 17, 2009 at 3:40 pm
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Perhaps that works in HoN. In DotA without the crit Juggernaut wont be a liable carry. saving the last 3 ranks of crit until level 23, 24, 25. You are making me cry. This is one of the best passives in the game except ulties, and you wanna bypass it. <\3
shuror
shuror Oct 18, 2009 at 10:39 am
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Nah. Maybe it's unclear. Crit at 13,14,15,17.
Digestive
Digestive Oct 18, 2009 at 2:13 pm
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Crit > ward. Even WITH stats skilled you can never ult + spin + ward at one time
Rhave
Rhave Oct 15, 2009 at 5:53 pm
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madman:

I go a build which I dont see many madman go but because of my build I have a LOT easier time early game than them and thus I have a lot easier time farming for late game.

I go Stalk > Stun > stalk > stun > stalk  > stun > stalk > crit > crit > crit> crit > ult > ult > statats untill I get third ult and then stats

build: bottle > boots > enhanced marchers > 3 scarabs > stam staff > get my first greater archana > steamstaff > 2nd archana and repeat untill you get Hellflower. Once you farmed up hellflower you are a ganking machine and can also have a guaranteed ult stop for tempest. After hellflower I go whispering helm and then farm/gank until I get satanic/symbol of rage and then (the game should be over by this) BKB/shrunken head
Arirang
Arirang Oct 15, 2009 at 6:04 pm
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Eh..your skill build is pretty standard among many Madman players.  I guess you go mid.  Your item build is pretty different.  I can't say I am a big fan of your item builds, but it may not be the kind of role that I play with my Madman.

I guess what throws me off here is your prioritizing on stalk over stun.  While I like taking stalk first, I would definitely put stun over stalk after level 1.
Rhave
Rhave Oct 15, 2009 at 6:10 pm
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Arirang said
Eh..your skill build is pretty standard among many Madman players.  I guess you go mid.  Your item build is pretty different.  I can't say I am a big fan of your item builds, but it may not be the kind of role that I play with my Madman.

I guess what throws me off here is your prioritizing on stalk over stun.  While I like taking stalk first, I would definitely put stun over stalk after level 1.
Stalk costs 60~ mana. You can harass and chip enemies health quiet a lot of times and get last hits on creeps very easily while stun at lower level is short duration, similar damage to stalk but costs 2 times the mana (if not 3)
Robert0
Robert0 Oct 15, 2009 at 7:40 pm
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Another hero that has a definite stat build imo is succubus/bane elemental. each additional level of nightmare you get past rank 1 only adds one second to the duration, as opposed to the 4 seconds you get just for having one level in it. Also, smitten makes more of an impact late game, and early on I feel it's more effective to take stats to expand your tiny mana pool to cast your mana-heavy spells more often.
Robert0
Robert0 Oct 15, 2009 at 10:07 pm
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now my homework: since you picked madman and weaver for this topic, i figured the skill we'd be discussing is stalk/shukuchi. each additional point knocks just two seconds off of cooldown and nothing else, so it probably wouldn't be too wise to max it early instead of stats. madman especially is a very mana-dependent hero, so you'd want to conserve mana anyway to be able to use your stun as well. for madman I could go:

stalk/stun
stalk/stun
stun
stats
stun
berserk
stun
stats
gash
stats
berserk
gash
gash
gash
stats all the way
Arirang
Arirang Oct 15, 2009 at 10:39 pm
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Hahahah sharp man.  Pretty good, sir.
Ghork
Ghork Oct 15, 2009 at 10:15 pm
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(keeep in mind i'm ******* drunkn thus wont do specifics) madman first lvl i'll take the windwalk thingie afte that the stun, barrel roll i think and max that, while taking stats on the side, i'll keep that on for a while i will take the ult though, at 11+ i'lll start taking crits, and then late game i'll take the rest of the windwalk for the cooldown
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