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 by Brooch Fan, Level 25
Last updated at September 19, 2008, 11:28 am
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PR
 IMO Blizzard should've just let point selling go on, but regulate anything above 2100+ to prevent any non-legit title earning. This would save a lot of work for Blizz as well as allow people of means (in game) to be able to get their alts up to speed, since two-season old gear simply does not cut it in arena.
I feel 2050 is pretty appropriate for weapons. 2200 I feel is kind of higher than it should be for shoulders, if anything they should have swapped weapon / shoulder PR reqs as weapons have more game impact over status.
Side note: It's pretty awesome how 20+ pt wins totally skews your PR while big losses of that caliber usually are not as devastating to the team's PR (not TR). "Oh sweet 22 point win...oh wait we only gained 14 pr."
PvE Gear
In regards to PvE gear in arena...I see this argument being comparable to when wsg / ab (wsg mostly) were taken somewhat seriously. I believe there was a guild on dethecus back in these days called "BEST GEAR BEST PLAYERS" which pretty much summed up the core PvP'rs in Nurfed / Relentless who got the full benefit of HWL weaps with the best armor and accessories out of BWL / AQ. Some of the people we saw shine early in arena were members of these two guilds, i.e. Power Trip, although Ecilam and Nitrana (Notorious) were also former hardcore raiders, Ecilam completed atiesh if I recall.
Quick Devil's Advocate: As everyone recalls CLC got Merc Glad in s2, none of whom were raiders / used PvE gear, hell Inactive had a Deep Thunder for most of s2. This was a result of PvE gear (outside of paladins) not really being that much better, till BT / S3 when armor pen started to rear its ugly head and balance went out the window. However just like in the WSG days a skilled HWL/pvp geared team could easily outplay (regardless of gear) a group of 10 terrible raiders in pve gear. In reference to Inactive's video by no means am I saying the latter applies to the entire BOP NOW team, although Zyori / Kurlanz were simply overgeared for those times (Zyori moreso) and I never did hear anything about either being good.
History lesson over, to get to the point, simply having gear will not be insta 2200, 2050 maybe, but the people who excel and put more time into this game are the people who achieve rank 1 titles (read: Serennia) :P but yes, Serennia was a notorious user of his PvE ties namely SR abuse, but also had those little min/max upgrades such as a tsunami talisman and the stormherald; but this should not overshadow his skill, holding rank 1 in all 3 brackets in the height of bg9 fame is no small feat. I am not fanboying, I am simply using Serennia as an example of the min/maxing hardcore players that exist in nearly all rank 1 spots in every BG.
Examples taken from my current BG, rampage:
2's: 4pc slayer's Rogue
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Cho%27gall&ts=2&t=LOLRAWRKEK+AJOlympics&select=LOLRAWRKEK+AJOlympics&fl=1
3's: Insanely geared Rogue...simply insane (currently using s4 maces for AR build, has glaives), Priest with hyjal cloak / brut mace, Shaman using hyjal legs
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Stormreaver&ts=3&t=Sleepless&select=Sleepless&fl=1
5's: Skillful JAC copy (JAC is also the current rank 1 on Bloodlust, good to see them rebound from that win trade debacle)
Shaman is sporting the KJ mace + Mu'ru trinket (i would think memento would be better, but i'm just assuming he doesn't have it)
Rogue in 4pc slayer's
Priest is also a KJ slayer based on his armory, but I would assume can't afford to get the full use of his PvE gear in this comp.
http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Illidan&ts=5&t=Jorgo+fails+HARD&select=Jorgo+fails+HARD&fl=1
What it comes down to is: i'm 99.99% sure the people who cry about PvE gear in arena are not in contention for Brutal Gladiator this season. If they were truly serious about the title then they would min/max and make time to PvE...or they can just settle for their Duelist title. As we saw in s1, some oddball comps got drakes simply because a) arena being relatively new, with zero expecations / strats b) If you were even remotely decent and could maintain a 50-60% win ratio with maybe 300+ played, you earned it by default! Or in this case: 2,267 games played (~12 dc / dodge losses?)
http://www.wowarmory.com/hall-team-info.xml?se=1&r=Vek%27nilash&ts=2&t=Sitting+Ducks&select=Sitting+Ducks
Truly a feat to behold! In summation people crying about PvE gear should suck it up and do what the above team did...stick it out and get Gladiator, leave Brutal glad to the min/maxers.
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Riddler Sep 19, 2008 at 12:32 pm
+2 votes
I used to always have been kind of neutral on rating requirements on arena gear. However now, I am starting to lean towards getting rid of the requirements.
On one side, I understand how top tier arena players want to have something to show off and brag about. As of now, there really isnt too much to strive for after you get all of the glad gear. I think a good solution for that instead of the putting requirements on gear would be to add more asthetic items to buy with arena points. Stuff such as mounts, minor glyphs, titles, maybe even turn in arena points for gold, along with the other stuff such as the epic gems because the stat differences are so marginal and I would also like to see stuff like enchanting supplies.
To me, the gear gap (and RNG)Â does get pretty frustrating when IÂ am trying to gear up some of my alts. I really wouldn't see a problem at all with leveling the playing field by allowing all players to have access to all the gear as long as they have the points for it. The problem with the rating system for me isnt how "hard" it is to get 2200, but that it doesnt really allow me to play on teams with my friends and really creates a massive gear gap between new 70s and Gladiators.
On one side, I understand how top tier arena players want to have something to show off and brag about. As of now, there really isnt too much to strive for after you get all of the glad gear. I think a good solution for that instead of the putting requirements on gear would be to add more asthetic items to buy with arena points. Stuff such as mounts, minor glyphs, titles, maybe even turn in arena points for gold, along with the other stuff such as the epic gems because the stat differences are so marginal and I would also like to see stuff like enchanting supplies.
To me, the gear gap (and RNG)Â does get pretty frustrating when IÂ am trying to gear up some of my alts. I really wouldn't see a problem at all with leveling the playing field by allowing all players to have access to all the gear as long as they have the points for it. The problem with the rating system for me isnt how "hard" it is to get 2200, but that it doesnt really allow me to play on teams with my friends and really creates a massive gear gap between new 70s and Gladiators.
Inp Sep 19, 2008 at 12:37 pm
+3 votes
>>leave Brutal glad to the min/maxers
That's the entire point in why ppl don't agree with you. Brutal Glad should go to the best PvP player not the one that raided the most.
I don't mean to be rude, flame or anything but your argument is like trying to convince a person that thinks Birds are better then Fish that Fish are better simply becouse you think Fish are better.
That's the entire point in why ppl don't agree with you. Brutal Glad should go to the best PvP player not the one that raided the most.
I don't mean to be rude, flame or anything but your argument is like trying to convince a person that thinks Birds are better then Fish that Fish are better simply becouse you think Fish are better.
Brooch Fan Sep 19, 2008 at 12:51 pm
-1 votes
The time required to get the gear is an unfortunate reality, but like I showed in my examples / history lesson: the people who play this game more than your casual / full time pvp'r, who raid hardcore as well as arena hardcore, are the people who will get rank 1.
I understand your statement, i'm not saying they're the best just because of their gear (their rating reflects that). Their rating/win ratios are just a byproduct of their gear combined with their skill. The advantages may be slight in scope but if you were to match evenly skilled players (skill cap in mind) the group with those little advantages, in theory, will win not counting any variables / human error.
I understand your statement, i'm not saying they're the best just because of their gear (their rating reflects that). Their rating/win ratios are just a byproduct of their gear combined with their skill. The advantages may be slight in scope but if you were to match evenly skilled players (skill cap in mind) the group with those little advantages, in theory, will win not counting any variables / human error.
Inp Sep 19, 2008 at 1:24 pm
+1 votes
The reason hardcore raiders pre BC became top arena players in BC is because that was the, I don't want to say only, but pretty close to that, place to learn all of the game mechanics in detail and so on.
Sure you had BGs and World PvP but in back then the gear gap of someone raiding and someone who didn't was huge and the non raider had no chase unless you spent months farming ranks.
So yes, many of the old top raiders became top pvpers...but now that we have arenas...you don't need raiding to improve your pvp skills. You can do arenas, get gear and you will no longer be steamrolled by ppl in raid gear, meaning you have a venue and base to actually engage in PvP and learn.
I think we can both agree that you could not "learn" how to pvp before if you didn't raid or farm rank due to the gear difference, being 2 shot while you do 10% dmg at best to the other guy doesn't teach you anything.
Today, there is actually nothing that you can pick up from raiding that you can't from arenas when it comes to PvP skill. So the only purpose raiding serves is give certain classes a gear advantage vs those that only do arenas. Hence the reason why we don't like PvE gear in arenas.
Sure you had BGs and World PvP but in back then the gear gap of someone raiding and someone who didn't was huge and the non raider had no chase unless you spent months farming ranks.
So yes, many of the old top raiders became top pvpers...but now that we have arenas...you don't need raiding to improve your pvp skills. You can do arenas, get gear and you will no longer be steamrolled by ppl in raid gear, meaning you have a venue and base to actually engage in PvP and learn.
I think we can both agree that you could not "learn" how to pvp before if you didn't raid or farm rank due to the gear difference, being 2 shot while you do 10% dmg at best to the other guy doesn't teach you anything.
Today, there is actually nothing that you can pick up from raiding that you can't from arenas when it comes to PvP skill. So the only purpose raiding serves is give certain classes a gear advantage vs those that only do arenas. Hence the reason why we don't like PvE gear in arenas.
Brooch Fan Sep 19, 2008 at 1:40 pm
+1 votes
all i can think of is the 2nd most used nitrana quote behind "YOU'RE DONE, YOU'RE DONE"....
PLAY TO WIN
aha
PLAY TO WIN
aha
Fershie Sep 19, 2008 at 1:21 pm
+1 votes
Anyone not retarded doesn't care about Brutal/Vengeful/Merc Glad; it's a ******* title. That doesn't change the fact that PvE gear is retarded in arenas. Had I cared about Vengeful Glad, I could have very easily run for it in 3s and 5s, so that assumption fails (in my case).
Brooch Fan Sep 19, 2008 at 1:31 pm
+1 votes
swarm, but didn't you guys use wetworks towards the end of your 5's? He has 4 pc + spire (pretty sure he had it at the time you played as well). i'm just being a dork :P But yes I understand your PoV, Venge Glad in 5's was in contention between two heavily PvE geared teams (JAC / Win Trading is Hard).I never really outwardly implied / mentioned this previously, but what I felt that I implied the insignificance of the Merc/Veng/Brut title to the masses when I said that they should just leave the rank 1 stress and everything in between to "those" people.
p.s. tremort, I guess I understand why it would be better, almost like a 2nd mana tide, pretty much if something isn't dead after that tide it's over for them I guess
as well as help out with mana probs later in the games while finishing off the rest. (although even after the spriest died in ccannii's vid they still managed to kill darkt aha.Peanis Sep 19, 2008 at 2:11 pm
+1 votes
You and Serennia underestimate the time required in raiding for earning items. Extremely.
Brooch Fan Sep 19, 2008 at 2:20 pm
+1 votes
As I said I was writing a response to the PR portion of his entry then went on a tangent about the paragraph where he mentions PvE gear
resilve Sep 19, 2008 at 2:35 pm
+1 votes
The point should just be made that there is a difference between PvE noobs with very little pvp ability using their gear to cover up their lack of skill and faceroll their way up to glad-level ratings, and highly skilled PvP players who have the time and motivation to PvE to a high level aswell as PvP - players who would be up at glad title without any pve gear at all but through the desire to perfect their char also have some PvE items. It only shows in more than a few items in select classes anyway, but I dont see the justification in saying 'X is bad because he has PvE gear' when he has evidently a lot of ability and has just put a lot of time in to his char for some (usually) small upgrades.
The whole point of an MMO is that you progress your character and earn it gear/titles/etc if PvE players are doing this they should get to use their rewards to benefit them.
Im not saying the blog-writer is taking this view, just that it should be made in any PvE gear debate :p
The whole point of an MMO is that you progress your character and earn it gear/titles/etc if PvE players are doing this they should get to use their rewards to benefit them.
Im not saying the blog-writer is taking this view, just that it should be made in any PvE gear debate :p
Korgathishere Sep 19, 2008 at 4:41 pm
+1 votes
I love how you guys talk about skill all the time. "With enough skill you can carry a team to 2050 all by yourself." Uh no you can't. Your teammate has to atleast be somewhat decent. On my warrior alt I simply cannot find a good teammate to play with. On my rogue in 4/5 S4 I can attract higher quality teammates because I have decent gear, but only slightly. The mage I play with thinks it's impossible for us to kill warriors and insistes we can only kill their healers and he never sheeps the warriors enough so I end up getting raped by mace stuns so we ended up losing 8 matches yesterday that we could have easily won.
So yeah, the whole "good players naturally attract to each other" isn't exactly true. On my original server it was true however. I had played with these people for so long I had gained a reputation as a top player. So I actually had good teammates and we had 2300 ratings in S1 and S2. But then they quit the game or transferred because we played on a crappy backwater pve server and I haven't been able to find quality teammates since so now it's a struggle to even break 2k.
That's why the rating requirements should be lowered or abolished. People love to say Swifty sucks, or Drakedog sucks, or Viral sucks, etc, because they haven't gotten amazingly high arena ratings. Well guess what, not everyone likes the arena format or has high quality teammates. Some of the best players I know can't break 1800. Arena seems to be more about the people you know rather than skill. Even neilyo had ****ty ratings for a while if I remember right. Then his videos started getting popular and he found better teammates from it. And now he's considered the best rogue in the game.
So yeah, the whole "good players naturally attract to each other" isn't exactly true. On my original server it was true however. I had played with these people for so long I had gained a reputation as a top player. So I actually had good teammates and we had 2300 ratings in S1 and S2. But then they quit the game or transferred because we played on a crappy backwater pve server and I haven't been able to find quality teammates since so now it's a struggle to even break 2k.
That's why the rating requirements should be lowered or abolished. People love to say Swifty sucks, or Drakedog sucks, or Viral sucks, etc, because they haven't gotten amazingly high arena ratings. Well guess what, not everyone likes the arena format or has high quality teammates. Some of the best players I know can't break 1800. Arena seems to be more about the people you know rather than skill. Even neilyo had ****ty ratings for a while if I remember right. Then his videos started getting popular and he found better teammates from it. And now he's considered the best rogue in the game.
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