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by briyan, Level 45
Last updated at October 8, 2007, 1:30 am
Lethality is a 5-point rogue talent on the third tier of the Assassination tree. 5 points in Malice (5% increased crit chance) and 10 total points in Assassination are required before you can take Lethality. Straight from the game, we can see the description as follows:

(5/5) Lethality increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, Mutilate, Shiv, and Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.

What does this mean in simple terms?


5/5 Lethality makes your spammable special attacks do 15% more damage when they crit.

Lethality gives a max of 15% increase to crit damage, not 30%


Many players mistakenly think their crits are being increased by 30% due to the wording of the talent ingame. Due to the nature of crit calculation, however, a 30% increase to critical strike damage bonus equates to only a 15% increase in the actual damage of the attack.

By default, an attack that hits for 100 will crit for 200.
This 200 crit is made up of two parts, 100 base damage and 100 bonus damage
For 5/5 Lethality, we increase the 100 bonus damage by 30%, giving us 130 bonus damage
100 base damage + 130 bonus damage = 230 total damage
230 / 200 = 115%, thus our crit now does 15% more damage
LethalityIncrease = 15%

Gotcha #1 - the bonus only applies to critical strikes

While 15% sounds like a solid number, you must keep in mind that this bonus from Lethality only applies to critical strikes. Based on the critrate of our special attack, we can calculate exactly how much of the damage comes from critical strikes. A simplified formula for the proportion of crit damage for a rogue is:

CritFraction = 2*CritRate / (1+CritRate)

To show you why this simple formula makes sense, we can look at an example of Sinister Strike with a 25% critrate:

With a 25% critrate, we expect one in four attacks to crit
We'll use example attacks of 100, 100, 100, 200(crit)
Damage from crits = 200
Overall damage = 100+100+100+200 = 500
CritFraction = 200 / 500 = 40%

Now let's plug the same example numbers into our formula, where CritRate = .25

CritFraction = 2*CritRate / (1+CritRate)
CritFraction = 2*.25 / (1+.25) = .5 / 1.25 = 40%

Given the fact that we know Lethality will increase our CritFraction by 15%, we can multiply them together to get the total DPS increase for our special attack (Sinister Strike in this case).

SpecialDamageBoost = CritFraction * LethalityIncrease
SpecialDamageBoost = 40% * 15%
SpecialDamageBoost = 6%

Gotcha #2 – special attacks are only a small fraction of your total damage

To truly gain perspective on how much your damage is increasing due to Lethality, you need to determine how much of your total damage comes from special attacks (Sinister Strike in our example). This is not really a concrete number, but one that must be measured by your performance ingame. From my own experiences and input from several other rogues over time, I can provide fairly accurate estimates of this number for the sake of our discussion.

Basic estimate for any given build/gear level = 35%
Combat rogue, Raid setting = 25% - 35%
Combat rogue, PvP setting = 30% - 40%
Backstab/Mutilate rogue, PvP setting = 35% - 45%

Particularly with raiding rogues, this number will tend to get smaller and smaller as your gear improves, since auto-attack is the strongest-scaling component of your overall damage with +hit gear, haste, and attack power. In PvP scenarios, the number tends to be slightly higher due to the stop-and-go nature of PvP combat, which can reduce the relative contribution of auto-attack and increase the opportunities to unload a full energy bar.

We'll call this number the SpecialFraction, as it represents the fraction of our total damage that comes from our special attack. We can multiply this by our SpecialDamageBoost to determine the overall boost to our damage from Lethality.

TotalDamageIncrease = SpecialFraction * CritFraction * LethalityIncrease

For an example, we'll use a Combat Sinister Strike rogue with a CritRate of 25% and a SpecialFraction of 35%.

TotalDamageIncrease = 35% * 40% * 15%
TotalDamageIncrease = 2.1%

Lookup table (PVE) – find how much 5/5 Lethality is helping you


I have created a table of values that will help you estimate what kind of a DPS increase you are getting from Lethality in a typical PVE scenario (i.e. no resilience). To find your number, choose the CritRate of your special attack on the left side, and choose the SpecialFraction across the top.

5/5 Lethality DPS Increase


Lookup table (PVP) – 5/5 Lethality vs. 400 resilience


This second table uses the same principle as the one above, but it uses a modified formula that factors in the presence of 400 resilience (~10% critrate reduction, ~20% crit damage reduction) on your target. This is a nice round number that approximates the resilience of an opponent with full arena gear.

The new formula for CritFraction takes into account the critrate reduction and reduced crit damage:

CritFraction = 80%*2*(CritRate-10%) / ( 1+(CritRate-10%)*(80%*2 - 1) )

To find your number, again choose the CritRate of your special attack down the left and your SpecialFraction across the top.

5/5 Lethality DPS Increase vs. 400 resilience


The bottom line?


The moral of the story is that you should really think hard before you put any points into Lethality if you play a Sinister Strike build, particularly if your focus is PvP combat. While it is viewed by many as a "must have" talent in the Assassination tree for any build, I hope that some of these numbers can convince you otherwise. Giving 5 points to this talent for what will usually give you less than a 2% DPS increase may not be your best option, and could potentially be traded for some talents with "intangible" qualitites in the Combat or Subtlety trees.

If you are only interested in PvE raid damage, you will still want points in Lethality because there are no other alternatives that boost damage output, and Mutilate rogues have so many points into assassination that it makes sense to grab it anyway.
     
24 comments
Hexd
Hexd Oct 8, 2007 at 9:13 am
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Klynx
Klynx Oct 8, 2007 at 1:12 pm
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Yes but burst is what changes the pace of fights.  If what was going to be 1k/1k back to back sinister strikes turns into 1150/1150 sinister strikes, assuming 1k white damage from 2-3 hits in that time, you went from 3k dmg to 3300 damage in that 1 second window, a 10% burst increase total, 15% increase in yellow damage.  It's preference but it does make a difference over time.  6 sinister strike crits over a fight is 800-900 damage more on focus targets which could mean the difference between a gib and a save.

Its preference and the people who don't like it typically go 5/31/25 or something similar for pvp.  They do well on their own right but Its a different playstyle.
briyan
briyan Oct 8, 2007 at 2:19 pm
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Klynx, I agree with you to an extent, but remember if we're talking burst, a combat SS build is pretty much the opposite of burst. You don't have anything you can use for burst outside of AR, which by its nature is an extended DPS boost rather than a burst like you'd see from a Mutilate rogue.

You're looking at SS being basically your only damaging attack, and against 400 resilience we're talking a 20% critrate. Back to back SS crits are infrequent enough (4% chance) to the point where you can't count on them or coordinate with them to take a player down during a brief CC cycle.

And while it is true that 6 SS crits could add up to 800-900 more damage... how long would it take for you to see 6 SS crits? With a critrate of 20% against 400 resilience, we're talking 30 Sinister Strikes before we expect to get 6 crits. At 40 energy (4 secs of regen) apiece, that's 120 seconds (30x4) worth of energy to realize that 900 damage. 900 more damage spread out over 2 minutes? In my opinion, that's not going to make or break you.
Klynx
Klynx Oct 8, 2007 at 10:05 pm
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It is true that the odds of having two sinister strikes crit in a row is 4% assuming 20% critrate after resilience.  But after getting one crit, the odds of the next one critting is 20% again.  And if you pop AR, 30 sinister strikes (not even including offhand energy gen) takes 40-45 seconds.

But my point isn't total damage increase over time.  My point is that IF two crit in a row (which happens absolutely all the time, at least once in a game) you are 300 damage higher than you would be without lethality.  Its worth it.
Xanthi
Xanthi Mar 25, 2008 at 2:26 am
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you have to look at opportunity cost as well.
4/5 lethality with 5/5 vile poisons
2/5 lethality, 2/2 imp EA, 5/5 vile poisons

with the way armor penetration works, the 1k extra armor pen from imp EA could be as much as 6% damage increase, going from 1000 to 0 armor. 5pts of lethality is ~2% damage increase, thus 1pt ~0.4%. Murder is 1% per talent point, imp EA would be 3% per talent point. With the help of a pve spreadsheet from EJ, 1pt vile poison is roughly 0.1% assuming MH wound OH crip, but that is ignoring the additional 8% chance to resist dispel which makes it so much more precious in pvp.

the conclusion is this: lethality isn't bad, but there are other talents that might give you more damage per talent point that rogues can consider when speccing.
Klynx
Klynx Mar 26, 2008 at 7:50 pm
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Are you on a double or triple physical dps team?  Expose armor is great in that situation.  Doing duels, world pvp, 2v2 and the like?  Lethality is way better.  You can use those 5 cps on something for more direct damage.
Misto
Misto May 6, 2008 at 2:18 am
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I use expose in battlegrounds all the time, as I'm usually sat on a healer or a target being spam healed. Admittedly if they're on their own and have bad gear you can probably just gib them with evisc, but expose is great for putting extra pressure on that annoying priest or gibbing that mage that a paladin is spam healing.
Elladril
Elladril Jul 14, 2008 at 2:38 am
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Wow... you actually think 2 points in lethality is better than imp. EA? Maybe against a feral bear druid with 35000 armor.

Even against a paladin or resto druid in bear with 16000 armor, 1000 armor penetration would be a 1.556% damage increase. That's more than you'll get from 2 points of lethality.
Klynx
Klynx Jul 14, 2008 at 11:31 am
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Klynx
Klynx Jul 14, 2008 at 11:35 am
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Wait a second - did you really just comment on this post?  Why are you even reading this?  It's 8 months old!
Elladril
Elladril Jul 16, 2008 at 2:29 am
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Idk, I just happened upon it while clicking on blog titles that looked interesting..

16000/(16000 + 10557.5) = 60.247% dmg reduction
15000/(15000 + 10557.5) = 58.691% dmg reduction

60.247-58.691 = 1.556% difference.
Tipme
Tipme Oct 8, 2007 at 2:15 pm
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This blog changed the way I view Life.
Xyos
Xyos Oct 8, 2007 at 6:06 pm
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If you took the time to read that gg
Jaz
Jaz Oct 8, 2007 at 9:00 pm
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This fills me with doubt about my love of lethality!
Icki_
Icki_ Nov 12, 2007 at 5:10 pm
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This is why switching to 0/31/30 hasn't hurt my damage much. I've been playing it on the live realms, to over 2300.
Akendo
Akendo Nov 12, 2007 at 5:58 pm
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Very nice. Very interessting and Sad ;(.
AntScott4
AntScott4 Dec 12, 2007 at 1:00 am
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I would like to add something. Lethality does grant 2.3X damage not 2.15X, reasoning behind this is in-game tests, these test where done on 0 armor targets to not mess up the results:

Spec:
5/5 Lethality
0/2 Murder
0/3 Aggression
0/1 Surprise Attacks

Stats:
77-144 Damage dagger
1245 Attack power

Backstab:

(((1245/14)*1.7 77)*1.5 255) - (((1245/14)*1.7 144)*1.5 255) [Non Crit]
597.26-697.76
597-698 [Rounded]


(((1245/14)*1.7 77)*1.5 255)*2.15 - (((1245/14)*1.7 144)*1.5 255)*2.15 [Crit considering 2.15 modifier]
1284.12-1500.2
1284-1500 [Rounded]


(((1245/14)*1.7 77)*1.5 255)*2.3 - (((1245/14)*1.7 144)*1.5 255)*2.3 [Crit considering 2.3 modifier]
1373.71-1604.86
1374-1605 [Rounded]

To be safe I looked at my in-game tool tip and it said 597-698, making these formulas are accurate.
So if you're calculations are right my crit Backstabs should do 1283.55-1500.7.
Now if Lethality does 2.3X damage on a crit you get 1373.1-1605.4.
If my crits stay in the range of either of 2.15 or 2.3 we can tell which is true.

Lethality [2.15]: 1283.55-1500.7
1528 [Not Within Range]
1409 [Within Range]
1494 [Within Range]
1418 [Within Range]

Lethality [2.3]: 1373.1-1605.4
1528 [Within Range]
1409 [Within Range]
1494 [Within Range]
1418 [Within Range]

Since one of the results was out of range in the 2.15X tests, that makes 2.15X invalid, however all test in 2.3X where within range suggesting that 5/5 Lethality gives 2.3X on a crit.
briyan
briyan Dec 12, 2007 at 1:55 am
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Yes, a crit with lethality does 2.3x damage.  But that doesn't make it a 30% increase -- going from 2 (standard crit) to 2.3 (lethality crit) is an increase of 15%.

2 x 1.15 = 2.3
briyan
briyan Mar 26, 2008 at 8:40 pm
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Wow, somehow the formatting on this blog got all messed up after the fact.  Some kind of updates to GameRiot.   Oh well.
briyan
briyan Apr 8, 2008 at 4:01 pm
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Side note, I fiddled with the editor, finally got the formatting back to normal.
Twoface
Twoface Jul 6, 2008 at 1:47 pm
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Briyan, I'm wondering how much the 3% crit damage meta really gives?
Is it a static 3%, or does it get affected by all the same modifiers and end up as a really small number as well?
briyan
briyan Jul 14, 2008 at 12:25 am
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As far as I know, the meta gem increases the entire crit by 3%, not just the bonus portion.  Much like resilience, but in the opposite direction.
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