WoW Class Balance: Hunters

wait, did you make these up? or did you get them from some where? sorry if I'm being dumb, I just skimmed through the post.

 

I would read my other blogs to get a general idea of who I am and why I write what I do.

If you have other questions tell me.

 

Honestly I think the targetted traps would be a tad OP.

 

Not targeted, they get a targeting circle on the ground and throw it like throwing a grenade.

 

With as much of an AOE component as traps have I'd have to say 20 yards is a bit far for trap range. How about 10-15?

 

I know what you mean, but being able to throw it 20 yards isn't a big deal.  Throwing only 10 would be almost worthless as a change really.

 

20 yards is the same range as dispel meaning priests and such moving in to range for dispels would be vulnerable to thrown traps. Thats very powerful.

 

Dispel is 30.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=988

 

Until they nerf the Scorpid Poison, Dismiss Pet needs to stay as it is.

It's hard enough to burst a pet now, and it's essentially the only way to beat good hunter teams in 2s (and usually 3s).


As the game is right now, the only way you can apply an MS-type debuff is by standing right on the target, leaving yourself open to CC and damage. A hunter can bypass this by simply standing and refreshing his shot at max range.

Imagine a Warlock/Spriest/Ele Shammy/Hunter/Paladin team.
With the slowing trap, nobody would ever get close, as the opposing team gets massively raped from range with inefficient healing.

And dropping traps from 20 yards away? They're nearly impossible to avoid as it is (Concussive shot), now you want them to work before melee can even get close? In smaller arenas, there is a lot of potential for abuse.

 

I dont think you can relate the scorpid poison stack (which is being fixed last I heard) to dismiss pet time... they are completely unrelated.

You are right a MS-type debuff is by being next to them, but you fail to state how many different ways a warrior or rogue has to catch their target.  A hunter cannot apply this if you los or get close to him, so its basically opposite from warrior and rogue.  This doesn't mean they shouldn't get it, it just means its unique.

Slowing trap doesn't stop other ranged DPS or healing or warriors from moving with freedom and intercepts.  And the MS from the hunter wouldn't stack with warriors of course, so I don't see how that is so insane except if they dont burst someone they die from lack of healing.  Sounds like a standard gib team.


Traps in general are abusive in smaller areas, that is the nature of them.  The throwing part wont stop it from going off it not, it gives the hunter a bit more survivability when trying to give that support to his team (he doesn't have to run into melee range of a warrior, which he shouldn't have to).

 

Well, what I was referring to is the need to kill the scorpid pet fast if you want to have any chance of winning the game. With a 2.5 second dismiss time, it would be practically impossible to kill the pet (whereas 5 seconds at least gives you enough time to get it low for when it gets called later, or to interrupt the hunter).

My point isn't that a warrior can't catch up to a target- it's that, by being on the target, he is inherently opening himself up to whatever the other team decides to do. A hunter would have no such liability, and I think a ranged MS (only preventable by charging into the hunter and his team) would be slightly overpowered.

A hunter's ability to completely control purged warriors (and other melee, or even players who are trying to run to some particular point) through slowing traps is one of the biggest reasons to bring a hunter to an arena. Letting them do that without even leaving the safety of their side of the map also seems a bit too strong.

 

Wow, you must really suck.

And Intercept > Snares/Frost Trap.

 

I challenge you to an armory duel
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Maldazzar

Do you suck less?

 

Theorycraft 1 - Humanity 0

 

cleansing bite sounds like something straight off the hunter boards posted by some kid with a bong.

 

And why is that?

 

Id agree with him. Seems like an incredibly overpowered ability if the cd is too short. CC the hunter? Have his own pet bite him to break it.

Giving the pet the ability to attack friendly targets would essentially make any team unccable, or (with a long cd), give it another cc break besides trinkets and cleanses.

Its like giving a rogue a dmg over time on themselves. /wrists: you bleed for 30 damage over 20 seconds. Insignifigant ammount of damage for a free cc break on sheep, blind, sap, trap, etc.

 

My debate was between a minute and 2 minutes.  2 would make it just like a trinket and 1 would be better then a trinket and thus be a greater benefit to the team.  1:30 could work, but I think somewhere in the 1-2 range would be best if something similar to that comes in.  It is still only 1 CC break and you lose control of the pet for a bit.  Those seconds the pet is gone is enough for a rogue to stealth or someone to drink a bit.

 

Why not just let Hunters tame Felhunters, since that's what you seem to want.

 

Wow, that was one of the largest exaggerations I have seen in a while.

 

it sounds like a 1 minute cooldown mini-pvp trinket (breaks sap, sheep, freezing trap, blind, intimidating shout, etc) oh and it can be used on teammates...

might be a little too powerful

 

I think the supposed overpoweredness stems from its incredible universal application (magic removal and team damage covers *lots* of CC) and I don't think a cooldown would fix that.

If you make it less universal there would probably be less resistance to the idea.

 

Another version was where the hunter could not use it if he/she was CC'd, so its a teammate use only, not on self?

And it doesn't remove intim shout, as damage doesn't break that.

 

Damage breaks intimidating shout.

 

You only need to cast a spell to revive your pet when it dies, when you dismiss it you can summon it instantly so yeah that would be a bit ridiculous.

 

I swore it was a long cast for BOTH revive and re-summon.  I looked it up a while ago unless I completely missed it.  Link both on wowhead if you want or I will look when I finish playing TF2.  If I am wrong, I will remove it.  Pretty simple.

 

Call Pet is an instant spell.  You only have to revive if your pet is actually dead, dismissing allows you to resummon with Call Pet.

 

Call pet?

 

Indeed, Call Pet. http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=883

I was wrong, and thus removed that.  Refresh page if you still see it.

 

hopefully these changes will go through so then warlocks wont be the only overpowered pos class in this game. after that blizzard just needs to buff up the remaining classes to überness and we will have balance

 

Wounding shot should be like rogue wound poison, very little damage, like 50 or something. They should have to sacrifice some dps to keep up mortal strike from 30 yards.

 

Rather have it be like Mortal Strike, hitting for 1.7k every 6 seconds, 10 second debuff duration. I mean, that's balanced for warriors, I can't see why it wouldn't be for hunters too.

 

Vilu,

that's because you're an idiot

 

(To preface these comments with perspective, I'm a hunter that played on a 2100 team on Rampage, but voluntarily stepped out in place of a warlock to help our team get higher - though I now play as our team's warrior.)

First off, I cannot express how happy I am that you didn't put some silly get rid of the deadzone cheesiness in your changes; so many people have suggested it, and I feel it is part of the class and not at all what makes Hunters underpowered.

While at this point I will take any of the buffs I can get and I would be happy with your proposed changes, I think that you might have approached the problem without addressing a somewhat elusive part of class balance: synergy within matrices. If you look at a class like Rogues, they weren't really completely underpowered in 5v5 representation (at least recently); they were just locked into a 4dps matrix. While I still feel that such will be their place for a while longer (because MS just brings way too much to the table), the patch changes seem to be aimed at providing them at least some viability in a 3dps matrix - the changes address their mobility, which is primarily important in teams that like to change targets frequently throughout a match, which 4dps dot based teams to my knowledge are not fond of.

I digress, though. My point is that your changes do not address the problem I feel Hunters face in arenas: They aren't really viable in 4dps teams, and in 3dps teams warlocks and shamans (shamans especially) bring a lot more to the table. I think it is plain that the classic Power Trip matrix (Pally/War/Priest/Mage/Hunter), while there are some teams that still pull it off, is vastly inferior to 2345 as a 3dps matrix. I think part of the reason for this is that damage has scaled much faster than survivability/healing, but I won't get into that. I'll just say that, unless Hunters get the burst that would make them viable in 4dps, for them to be viable in 3s one of two things has to happen:

1. Hunters get some sort of utility that would make a Pally/War/Priest/Mage/x lineup want to take them instead of a Shaman or Warlock.
2. Hunters synergize in such a way that a new matrix becomes viable (to an extent CLC's matrix did this, but my personal experience trying to run it makes me believe it far too reliant on dodging RNGs).

Addressing 1, I look at your changes and say, if they became true, why bring a Hunter? Especially with the change to Detect Magic debuff, sheeps will be coming off a lot more easily and in that matrix you already have (conceivably) three dispels per global. When you're talking about fears, 1 damage isn't going to break any fear, and besides, with a one minute cooldown it really isn't that effective - I'd much rather have an extra 10 seconds of covered viper than a single debuff gone. You're with a warrior, who has a much more powerful debuff, so MS shot, while I think its a nice ability, only has its place if you're splitting DPS and then converging, something Classic hunter isn't great at, lacking the NS/ES/CL burst of the Shaman. Everyone knows that bloodlusted manaburns are damn near as effective (if not moreso) than the manadrain potential of Hunters, and shamans have Grounding Tremor (which combined = better than your pet dispel/intervene changes), far more burst potential, the ability to spot heal, and that little thing called heroism.

Addressing 2, your changes make Hunters more of a utility class, providing both offensive and defensive dispels as well as more versatile slows. So then where will their place be? The best matrix I could see if your changes came to pass would be Pally/Restoshaman/War/Mage/Hunter, splitting DPS with the double healing debuffs, then converging on a target with Heroism the decent burst that the dmg/healing replacing healing change will give Resto Shamans. I think this could work, but I'm not sure that it would be more effective than the simply awesome PvP power that is the priest.

So, enough criticism (and it isn't really, again I would be quite happy if these changes got implemented), what would I suggest?

-Aimed Shot now has a higher damage multiplier, a 30 second cooldown (this is arbitrary, could be more/less), a 2 second cast time, and ignores enemy armor. The idea here is one that you said you were going to address, and then didn't - hunters NEED more burst, and some way they can punish people that aren't LOSing. I hardly EVER aimed shot in arenas - its simply better to steadyshot twice if you're being left alone. If aimed shot got changed to be more of a burst-like ability, it would allow Hunters to synergize more with teams that like to switch targets frequently and/or teams that like to unload bursts inside CC windows. It would even make a team like Pally/Restosham/Hunter/Mage/Warlock a viable composition, since you have the MS-like debuff to replace warriors. Ignoring armor I think is pretty necessary here, because to an extent teams with double-physical are denied viability since they're so limited by target selection; it's pretty easy to justify this change, too - it's an aimed shot, surely you're aiming for a hole in the guy's armor or something.

-Improved Concussive Shot is now 20/40/60/80/100%, but to immobilize rather than to stun. This eliminates some RNG interrupt cheese, while giving Hunters a much needed ability to keep their targets from LOSing them. It doesn't really change the metagame much, because the immobilize acts the same way that a frost nova was - it can be cleansed and/or freedomed.

-Distracting Shot now causes the hunter to take it's target's next ability/spell if used/cast within 3 seconds (sorry for the poor wording, don't know how to word it better), and has a 15 second cooldown. This shot really needs some love, especially of the PvP kind, and this provides a similar function to your pet talent but makes it much more controllable and skill-based. With your pet one, the debuff is affecting the pet, which isn't really that much of a sacrifice unless you are relentlessly committed to covering viper or something. Now whatever it is is affecting the hunter. There are SO many possibilities for using this skill cleverly (catching a warrior right before his intercept so he goes to the wrong target), offensively (if you have dots on you, do it to a mage's sheep), defensively (on a burst spell obviously), or just plain clutch (denying a mage counterspell at a critical moment, for example).

-Deterrence now also increases your chance to resist Magic effects by 25% in addition to Dodge and Parry. I have no idea why this change wasn't implemented a long time ago.

-Wing Clip now has a 15 second duration (or Hamstring now has a 10 second duration). This needs to happen. It's dumb as hell to wing clip a war, get hamstrung at the same time, and try to break melee, only to have him catch up to you in the 5 second window.

-There are now two separate trap C/D timers: offensive and defensive. Frost and Freezing traps share cooldowns (same as before) as defensive traps, and Immo/Explo share a separate cooldown (same as before). Not sure which snakes should fall into, but this change is really needed - there is NO reason to EVER use immo/explo traps, and if blizz is going through the trouble to scale them, why not use them once in a while?

-New wolf ability: Smell prey. Come on, I'm sure doggies can sniff out that dirty rogue that's lurking around. Give us a reason not to use scorpid cheese.

-Scorpid poison now stacks to something smaller than 5. It's a bit of cheese right now, give me a break :P

-Viper sting now returns 50% (arbitrary number subject to suggestion/change) of mana drained to the hunter. Right now one of hunters most enormous problems is mana efficiency - we are one of the most easily drained, if not the most easily, in the game, and draining gets rid of most of our viability. While in its current covered state this might be OP, with a reduction in scorpid poison stacking this would be fine, I think.

-Okay, I'm gonna get a lot of **** for this one, and I agree that it is probably way too difficult to balance right, but still: Improved AotH is now Improved Aspects, which causes 20/40/60/80/100% of your Aspect's effect to affect your party. Some other BM talent is given IAotH to placate the PvE hunters that are prolly shaking their heads right about now. And yes, I know this might be a *****, and OP, and hard to balance, but come on, this gives Hunters an adaptive, powerful group utility. Mana regen for outlast and Dodge for when things get tight. None of the other aspects would really be beneficial here, but aren't these enough?

While your changes to pets are novel and interesting, I don't think they need to bring so much to the table. However, I will add my own pet ability, which isn't really mine because I think blizz had it slated a long time ago and somehow forgot it/decided it wasn't needed. Well, it is.

-New pet ability: Free Master. 30s c/d (arbitrary). Pet runs/charges/whatever to hunter, breaks roots and snares and provides 1 second of root/snare immunity. Hunters need a better escape than they have, since the deadzone needs to stay and they rely on range so much. Some people have suggested implementing root breaking into FD, but I like FD as a spell canceller. The immunity is so that you can break melee, since we'll assume that if you have to use this you don't have freedom.

Comments, criticisms, and flames are all welcome

 

Ideas seem very solid, and your arguments against his buffs are very valid.

But 'sniff prey' is enough Bull****, sorry. We cant get a restealth with a pet attacking us anyway, and you already have a trap, flare, and track hidden to try and find us. Giving you a definite rogue finder is not a necessary nor fair buff. Rogues arent overpowered by any means, and their more substantial combos are getting nerfed already(rogue resto and rogue rogue w/ the implementation of blind DRs).
A more powerful means of finding a stealth when arenas are already littered with ways to break our class' defining characteristic is a stupid and uneccesary addition (Read: Paranoia, Perception, Flare, Pets, AoE, Shouts, FF, Eyesight buffs.)

 

Totally agree with Late, hunters do not need "sniff prey" at all. Basically, you are asking to own rogues without giving them any chance to fight or escape.

In addition to that, I think your 15 sec Wing Clip is also overpowered, you have frost trap. I understand your point about Hamstring, but you can't balance things overpowering one class-specific ability to counter another one which is overpowered against all other classes. I like more the idea to reduce the Hamstring duration AND/or the 3 sec cooldown that Idej suggested in his blog about Warrior balance.

Also, I am not so sure about Idej's idea of Weapon Shot. It's a good idea, but disarming the target for 8 secs from far... well, dunno, seems like a bit too much to me. Rogue's version is an 11 talent point skill, which only activates after a parry, and lasts 6 seconds. Besides, consider the 2.3 patch zero immunity to disarm. Yes, it is something  needed by Hunters, but if you really want to make it a defensive ability, it should be a meelee one just like Wing Clip, but then it will lose its purpose about being useful for the team.

 

Wing Clip duration is 10 secs.  Perhaps you are thinking of Hamstring, which lasts 15 secs.

 

His point was he disagrees with my suggested change, which was to increase the duration of Wing Clip from 10 to 15 seconds.

 

The proposed 'RAP" scaling changes i've seen are a joke - 10% of a PvP hunters rap, oh yay thats what.. 200 damage on your serpent? Few hunters use this in PvE, it simply doesn't compare to steady for damage/mana - and given hunters GCD spamming, it's not worth the filler.

If you wished to give hunters a form of healing debuff the OBVIOUS way would be via a sting, downside being it would be fairly easily negated by shamans/druids. Further to that, you could just talent stings to give say a 25% healing de-buff on the target when applied that way all your stings are potnetially useful still, this could restict spec usage if too strong.

Trap wise - you could always add a trap that gives off an attack/casting speed de-buff aura, as a more defensive ability. Would be good against war/rogues and useful against healers.

Personally think pets should be left as is utility wise - we're not warlocks. Sure let them take on some resil i guess, but nothing game altering.

 

(To preface these comments with perspective, I'm a paladin playing on a team with hunter on
number 1&2 teams on Rampage; we play a war/hun/wlk/pst/pld drainburn setup).

Not sure where to start, so I'll just start with the mana efficiency mentioned by Tzatziki earlier. Hunter's ooming is quite comparable to warlock's ooming, even if it happens (which it does quite often), it really doesn't impact the game that much. Given the burn capabilities of the class, at the point where the hunter ooms from ability usage, he has most likely made 2 opposing players oom already, which imo is a pretty good trade-off.

Another thing is ooming from being burned/drained, and being forced to drop out of action to regain mana. I don't think we've ever lost a match where the opposition burned our hunter's mana. If you burn our hunter, by the time you're done we've burned 2 of your peeps (since you neglected both our priest & lock). Hunter spends few secs out of combat before getting back in to the action, where you now
have 2 combat bound players out of mana.

Now I understand that even if hunter ooming in our setup isn't a problem, it might be that for other setups (like the one mentioned before, with mage/hun), which brings out what I think is the main flaw of the class. It's too picky on what setups it can play with. You absolutely have to play an outlast game,
since the hunters’ CC/burst/interrupt capabilities just aren’t enough.

This is where I’d like to see some change, to buff up the diversity of the class. Having a healing debuff would allow teams with hunter to spread DPS since you could easily nuke two targets, making healing versus them a bit more tricky. Armor ignoring buff/debuff/ability would allow hunters to nuke down warriors, paladins & shamans, giving them scary burst against classes who usually are off limits to such treatment. Buffing Silencing Shot to also have a 3 second lockdown effect if it hits a cast would allow hunters to be used in gib setups, since the SS wouldn’t be dispelled/shielded out off anymore, creating windows of burst which usually are created with CS/Spelllocks.

Well, all/someof this on top off the already announced changes combined with fixing pet pathing and giving pets percentage of their master’s resilience would go a long way in making the class more wanted in arena.

 

You are correct, it is much easier as wlk/hunter on your mana. The problem is, with mage/hunt your priest is always always the target, so if you combine that with an attack on the hunter's mana, it's very rare you're going to see a rediculous amount of burning coming out, which was the original intention of that team; this is why wlk/hunter and sham/mage setups became more popular.

You actually agreed with most of my post, since its essentially saying that classes don't synergize well with hunters in their current state (your "pickiness" argument), and need more burst.

 

Oh, and out of curiosity, what team do you play on? I didn't know any high ranked Rampagers ran CLC...

 

Knockout. What's CLC?

 

hes talking about rampage eu

and btw you're not rank 1 and 2 :P