POST STUFF
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 by Idejder, Level 26
Last updated at July 27, 2007, 1:04 am
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What I am going to use this blog for is to break down each class and relate strengths and weaknesses, then state how I feel they can be tweaked for the better. Some classes need complete overhauls. Some need just a few touches, like warriors.
This is by far not a fast science, so do not expect me to meander through a whole class and break down their talents and abilities correctly in a day. Just recently, Anenga from Notorious agreed to help with the class remakes, so hopefully the time between classes wont be horribly long.
Remember one thing when reading and replying. Every idea is good. If you think we are off the wall in terms of what we want to do to your class, tell us! If we haven't done enough, tell us that too! If you have a unique idea for something, say it.
And now, the first class we already had done.
Warrior
Warriors
are one of the top damage dealers; they are the brute force behind many groups in
today's arena and when not stopped, they are a source of steady and
unlimited damage. Currently in the game, warriors fill the damage role
perfectly, and do not need any form of damage increasing mechanics. On
top of being great damage dealers, they are also one of the hardest
classes to kill, with massive hitpoint pools while topping the armor
charts. Finally, warriors have one of the strongest debuff moves in
the game through Mortal Strike, and maybe it is time for a change to
such an ability. The weakness of warriors, as with any melee class, is
that if their target gets out of reach of them they cannot do any
damage. Currently I feel the weakness of warriors is not strong
enough, or at least is erased too easily by support classes and compounding bonuses from sets and talents. The
follow suggestions for warriors will first be grouped by any changes to
gear that directly influences them, then skill mechanic changes, then
talent changes. A detailed reason for each change will follow each
suggestion, underneath it in italics.
Gear Changes
- -Warrior 4-piece set bonus for Arena and Honor sets now reduces the cooldown of Intercept by 2 seconds.
- ---Currently
warriors are slightly too mobile, allowing for them to catch up to
someone every 15 seconds(for 3 seconds, that target is stunned). In
combination with the cooldown talent change for improved intercept, this
will allow the weakness of range to actually show itself in battles,
where currently it does not exist.
- ---Currently
- -Two handed crafted maces(such as Stormherald) now reduce the maximum health of their target by 700 for 10 seconds.
- ---Currently,
the 4 second stun on these weapons puts a huge part of the warrior's
game in the hands of the Random Number Generator (RNG). This is not
fun waiting for a proc, but when it does go off the target has only
doom awaiting him unless his trinket is unused. Together with mace
specialization and intercept, this proc allows for warriors to stun
lock players almost better then rogues. Decreasing maximum health is a
unique mechanic and synergies well with Mortal Strike when trying to
burn down a high priority target.
- ---Currently,
Ability Changes
- -Mace stun effect from Mace Specialization can only affect the targeted player.
- ---Currently,
mace stun effect can proc on secondary targets off abilities such as
Cleave or Whirlwind, and I feel this needs changed to just the primary
target. The other specializations do not allow for secondary targeted
effects, so Mace Specialization should not differ.
- ---Currently,
-Hamstring now has a 3 second cooldown.
- ---Hamstring
a powerful snare, as it not only slows movement speed considerably, but
can be used to trigger effects such as weapon procs, windfury, and
specializations when spammed. Adding a cooldown to this will not only solve these issues, but also allow the affected
player to escape if they can break the snare fast enough, yet again
exposing the weakness of the warrior (which presently is missing).
- ---Hamstring
- -Berserker Rage is no longer on the Global cooldown.
- ---This change has its roots deeply planted in a PvE setting, as if this ability is on global cooldown
when a boss fears, someone else in the raid will probably die in a
single hit. This can spell doom for any normally successful raid. On
the PvP side of the coin, this would impact the ebb and flow of both
arena and battlegrounds minimally. Warriors who are feared usually
break it within 1 second, and then immediately intercept back to the
target. If anything, this might be a nerf to fast warriors, as they
will break fear too quickly and not be far enough to intercept, but out
of melee range and turned in the wrong direction!
- ---This change has its roots deeply planted in a PvE setting, as if this ability is on global cooldown
- -ONHOLD- Pummel is no longer on the Global Cooldown
- ---Gonna remove this, as I was convinced otherwise. Apologizies. This
is a change I have been wanting to do for a while, and recently got
the... err.. enough support to formally suggest it. This is not just
pummel alone. All interrupt effects, be them talents or trained,
should be off the global. They are essential timed abilities and if
you are on GCD , you can miss an interrupt because of it even if you are
skilled enough to catch it normally. With more sub 1.5 second casts
being put in the game, I feel this change is worthwhile.
- ---Gonna remove this, as I was convinced otherwise. Apologizies. This
Talent Changes
- -Weapon Mastery now reduces the duration of disarm by 20/40%. Effect does not stack with other disarm reduction effects.
- ---I
feel this is a necessary change, as currently casters and healers can
be silenced and unable to act, but warriors cannot be given the
equivalent treatment with the talent as it is. After the change, the
silence and disarm mechanics will act in the same manner. Disarm
chains, equip bonuses, or enchants will all be retrofitted to be 40%
less time disarmed.
- ---I
- -Reverted Sword Specialization change.
- ---I
did not like the suggestion I had originally for the Sword Spec. For
now I think all of the specs should remain as they are until a better
suggestion comes up. I overall dislike the Specializations, so I will
be talking to people about this one more.
- ---I
- -Improved Intercept now reduces the cooldown of Intercept by 4/8 seconds.
- ---Currently warriors are slightly too
mobile, allowing for them to catch up to someone every 15 seconds(for 3
seconds, that target is stunned). In combination with the set bonus change, this will allow the weakness of
range to actually show itself in battles, where currently it does not
exist.
- ---Currently warriors are slightly too
- -Mortal Strike is now a 40% healing debuff, down from 50%.
- ---Yes,
I realise this is a large change. It is a direct efficiency buff to
healing by 20%. I feel we have come to that point where healing is
become too underpowered in matches and it needs a buff. That is really
all there is to say about it, healing across the board is not strong
enough anymore. This change would apply to other forms of healing
debuffs as well, so warriors are not alone here.
- ---Yes,
A response Blog done by Noktyn, warrior of Pandemic.
http://www.gameriot.com/blogs/Noktyns-Blogtyn/A-Response-to-Warrior-Changes-oops/
The next blog might not be on the next classes I am evaluating (Rogues or Warlocks) but instead on general game changes. Here is an example of one of the general changes I am working on:
- Major Combat Health and Mana Potions now have different flavor texts depending on which token was used to purchase it:
- Warsong Gulch: "The (Warsong Clan/Silverwing Sentinals) brewed this in a hollow log. Enjoy."
- Arathi Basin: "The (Undead/Humans) from Arathi Basin claim this is an old family recipe."
- Alterac Valley: "The water in Alterac Valley is known for its healing properties."
- Eye of the Storm: "The (Blood Elves/Draenei) from Eye of the Storm infused this potion with nether energy."
More coming soon =)
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58 comments
oPlaiD Jul 27, 2007 at 5:34 pm
+3 votes
Warriors have always been so frustrating in the arena, and I think it's mainly because of Intercept. They're supposed to be able to do a ton of damage, and they obviously do, but their melee nature should make it more avoidable.
One change I'd like to see is to remove the stun from intercept. Make it root the target in place but let them continue actions - and don't interrupt spells being cast when you charge them.
Most of these changes, though, look very good.
One change I'd like to see is to remove the stun from intercept. Make it root the target in place but let them continue actions - and don't interrupt spells being cast when you charge them.
Most of these changes, though, look very good.
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Idejder Jul 28, 2007 at 6:22 pm
+3 votes
It was an idea we were playing around with for a while actually, but there are many things against it. Mainly that the stun is so essential to many parts. Not just interrupting spells, but reducing dodge is a use for it.
If it was a root instead of a stun, then druids could shift out of it, and rogues could vanish out of it, which wouldnt really work and hurt the warrior a ton.
That is why we voted against that when coming up with ideas, but if you still feel strongly about it let me know why and how those problems I mentioned(I think there are a few more as well) can be solved.
If it was a root instead of a stun, then druids could shift out of it, and rogues could vanish out of it, which wouldnt really work and hurt the warrior a ton.
That is why we voted against that when coming up with ideas, but if you still feel strongly about it let me know why and how those problems I mentioned(I think there are a few more as well) can be solved.
oPlaiD Jul 28, 2007 at 10:30 pm
+2 votes
My main problem with it is that it's another way intercept gets around the supposed "range" problem it has. Right now, if you're a caster class and stay at range you can start casting a CC like Polymorph when they get in range running towards you yet they get to interrupt the spell the INSTANT they get inside intercept range, not the instant they actually reach you on the screen and start hitting you. That mechanic always bothered me since it defeats the purpose of being able to cast spells at them from outside their intercept range.
The other thing to look at is that, is it a bad thing if other classes can actually use their abilities or cooldowns to get out of an initial snare? A Warrior shouldn't have some sort of end-all-be-all ability that lets them defeat any issues with their melee nature and that's what it seems likey they have now (although maybe it wouldn't seem so bad without Blessing of Freedom).
Anyway, something like reducing the Intercept range a bit would probably serve the same purpose. There's a ton of changes that could serve to balance the class, and, the way WoW is, it's pretty clear nothing too extreme should happen.
The other thing to look at is that, is it a bad thing if other classes can actually use their abilities or cooldowns to get out of an initial snare? A Warrior shouldn't have some sort of end-all-be-all ability that lets them defeat any issues with their melee nature and that's what it seems likey they have now (although maybe it wouldn't seem so bad without Blessing of Freedom).
Anyway, something like reducing the Intercept range a bit would probably serve the same purpose. There's a ton of changes that could serve to balance the class, and, the way WoW is, it's pretty clear nothing too extreme should happen.
Idejder Jul 28, 2007 at 11:52 pm
+3 votes
Are you suggesting the stun is not applied until the warrior finishes the charge animation? That could get interesting because if the target is running full speed, the warrior is going to end up not right next to them. Think of a rogue sprinting in a straight line. Not a pretty result for the warrior.
The point is to remove a bit of mobility, and you are right some of the problem is in Blessing of Freedom. Support in general favors warriors way more then other classes, so it looks a lot worse then it is. With a combo of the intercept cooldown increasing and a cooldown on hamstring, I think you will see yourself gaining distance on warriors more often.
I dont see Intercept's range getting shortened. That really isnt an issue that I see as a flaw. The quick cooldown is what gives it the strength it has.
The point is to remove a bit of mobility, and you are right some of the problem is in Blessing of Freedom. Support in general favors warriors way more then other classes, so it looks a lot worse then it is. With a combo of the intercept cooldown increasing and a cooldown on hamstring, I think you will see yourself gaining distance on warriors more often.
I dont see Intercept's range getting shortened. That really isnt an issue that I see as a flaw. The quick cooldown is what gives it the strength it has.
oPlaiD Jul 29, 2007 at 12:41 am
+2 votes
If Intercept were to work that way then the Warrior would have to follow a moving player as he was in the charge animation much like spells follow players. I suppose that could cause some problems with blink - what if the mage blinked after the warrior intercepted but before he arrived at the target? but who knows.
Increasing the cooldown would certainly be a big help.
I'm really just interested in seeing some action on Blizzard's part - right now, the dev cycle for balance changes is way too long if they want to mold it into a real competitive game with the arena. They've had a whole season to evaluate where things currently stand and they havn't done much to change things around when it's clear that some classes are seriously under or overpowered in certain brackets.
Increasing the cooldown would certainly be a big help.
I'm really just interested in seeing some action on Blizzard's part - right now, the dev cycle for balance changes is way too long if they want to mold it into a real competitive game with the arena. They've had a whole season to evaluate where things currently stand and they havn't done much to change things around when it's clear that some classes are seriously under or overpowered in certain brackets.
oPlaiD Jul 29, 2007 at 12:41 am
+2 votes
If Intercept were to work that way then the Warrior would have to follow a moving player as he was in the charge animation much like spells follow players. I suppose that could cause some problems with blink - what if the mage blinked after the warrior intercepted but before he arrived at the target? but who knows.
Increasing the cooldown would certainly be a big help.
I'm really just interested in seeing some action on Blizzard's part - right now, the dev cycle for balance changes is way too long if they want to mold it into a real competitive game with the arena. They've had a whole season to evaluate where things currently stand and they havn't done much to change things around when it's clear that some classes are seriously under or overpowered in certain brackets.
Increasing the cooldown would certainly be a big help.
I'm really just interested in seeing some action on Blizzard's part - right now, the dev cycle for balance changes is way too long if they want to mold it into a real competitive game with the arena. They've had a whole season to evaluate where things currently stand and they havn't done much to change things around when it's clear that some classes are seriously under or overpowered in certain brackets.
Idejder Jul 29, 2007 at 1:10 am
+3 votes
Patch 2.1 had a ton of changes to classes, and the next one will have a bunch of balance changes as well. I agree the dev cycle isnt fast enough, but that isnt really anything we can affect.
ultrasnarl Jul 29, 2007 at 4:46 pm
+3 votes
Some really well thought out ideas here, that even as a warrior I could agree with.
My one question/concern would be about the change to Sword Spec. What haste rating increase did you have in mind? In my opinion, for it to be worthwhile over Mace Spec and the promise of crafted mace goodness, it'd have to be pretty substantial.
ps- I linked here through WoM, and seeing more than "Warriors should be nerfed" is refreshing. Thanks.
My one question/concern would be about the change to Sword Spec. What haste rating increase did you have in mind? In my opinion, for it to be worthwhile over Mace Spec and the promise of crafted mace goodness, it'd have to be pretty substantial.
ps- I linked here through WoM, and seeing more than "Warriors should be nerfed" is refreshing. Thanks.
Idejder Jul 29, 2007 at 5:23 pm
+3 votes
My thoughts on the amount of haste gained is you would calculate the total dps increase over either a long fight or a short duration (like one proc) from the extra attacks on average, and then give a haste rating that would increase the DPS for that much.
So really, lets say in 5 seconds the current one procs once and you get an extra attack, thus doing a total of... lets say... 4 attacks. The haste rating if it proced would let you do 4 attacks in 5 seconds evenly spaced instead of the burst.
So really, lets say in 5 seconds the current one procs once and you get an extra attack, thus doing a total of... lets say... 4 attacks. The haste rating if it proced would let you do 4 attacks in 5 seconds evenly spaced instead of the burst.
Armaros Jul 29, 2007 at 5:11 pm
+2 votes
Mace spec is the only problem I see with warriors at the moment.
Also, the pally nurfs are going to hurt warrior mobility some.
Also, the pally nurfs are going to hurt warrior mobility some.
Idejder Jul 29, 2007 at 5:24 pm
+3 votes
Yes they are slightly, but the paladin changes are on a much broader scale and that change affects all classes, not just warriors.
The real mobility factor that gives them so much is 15 second intercept.
The real mobility factor that gives them so much is 15 second intercept.
Armaros Jul 29, 2007 at 7:23 pm
+2 votes
As I said, this is why I think mace spec needs to be looked at.
The stuns help keep the warrior on target w/o having to do anything extra.
But you should also take into account that a warrior needs to be in range to be of any use.
I would also point out that a warrior is much weaker when not teamed with paladin.
The stuns help keep the warrior on target w/o having to do anything extra.
But you should also take into account that a warrior needs to be in range to be of any use.
I would also point out that a warrior is much weaker when not teamed with paladin.
Idejder Jul 29, 2007 at 8:37 pm
+3 votes
I agree mace stun is pretty lame overall, but I would want to see how all of these changes combo'd with everything else I have in mind before nerfing mace spec into the ground. You will see more of my ideas as time goes on I am sure.
padrote Aug 8, 2007 at 1:55 pm
+1 votes
Mace spec is retarded on rogues and warriors. Just "nerfing" crafted weapons actually hurts lolret and lolenhancement more, like they needed that. I would say keep weapons as is and look into mace spec.
Jedus Jul 29, 2007 at 5:38 pm
+2 votes
I agree. It's very hard for me to keep Warriors off of me. Almost impossible without a paladin on my side 
Blessing of Freedom/Protection.
Blessing of Freedom/Protection.Idejder Jul 29, 2007 at 6:32 pm
+3 votes
Updated it with a definite direction I am taking the next article in (General Changes, not class ones). Will be a bit longer, but lots of good stuff.
Renew Jul 29, 2007 at 8:51 pm
+2 votes
What is the point of adding flavor text to potions / items? oO
Idejder Jul 29, 2007 at 9:12 pm
+2 votes
I will explain more in the next update, but mainly its so if you have 3 stacks of those mana potions in your inventory. One is at full 10 stack, one is a stack of 4, and one is a stack of 8. You might need to play BGs for tokens to replenish the low one, but how the hell do you know which BG its from? That is the whole point. That and Flavor Text is more fun and creative then just "Warsong Mana Potion".
Runnin Jul 29, 2007 at 8:59 pm
+1 votes
Very nice, looking forward to your assessment of other classes
Anarkix Jul 29, 2007 at 9:05 pm
+1 votes
A 3s cooldown on hamstring and something done about MS and I'd be happy... Berserker rage and WotF are essentially the same abilities; these shouldn't be on GCD, nor should CS or a few abilities that I can't think of atm. Oh well, I guess.
And yes, mace stun was implemented specifically to **** **** up. AFAIC it's doing its job wonderfully.
And yes, mace stun was implemented specifically to **** **** up. AFAIC it's doing its job wonderfully.
zagzil Jul 30, 2007 at 4:50 am
+2 votes
On disarm immunity-
"I
feel this is a necessary change, as currently casters and healers can
be silenced and unable to act, but warriors cannot be given the
equivalent treatment with the talent as it is."
The central difference between melee and casters however, is fairly obvious. Melee has the inherent weakness of needing to be right next to their target to damage them. For this reason I really don't feel it's necessary to add an extra weakness to melee to "balance silence" so to speak. Furthermore only 2 classes in the game can disarm anyway while many can silence, so this really feels like an unnecessary change.
As far as 3 second cooldown on hamstring- what do warriors even do while PvPing then? I find very often I have all my damage abilities on cooldown, and keeping hamstring on a target is pretty important especially if it gets dodged, parried, or misses. I just feel like if hamstring had a GCD it would pretty much force warriors to sit there doing nothing for 3-4 seconds sometimes, and that's not exactly ideal in an "active" game.
"I
feel this is a necessary change, as currently casters and healers can
be silenced and unable to act, but warriors cannot be given the
equivalent treatment with the talent as it is."
The central difference between melee and casters however, is fairly obvious. Melee has the inherent weakness of needing to be right next to their target to damage them. For this reason I really don't feel it's necessary to add an extra weakness to melee to "balance silence" so to speak. Furthermore only 2 classes in the game can disarm anyway while many can silence, so this really feels like an unnecessary change.
As far as 3 second cooldown on hamstring- what do warriors even do while PvPing then? I find very often I have all my damage abilities on cooldown, and keeping hamstring on a target is pretty important especially if it gets dodged, parried, or misses. I just feel like if hamstring had a GCD it would pretty much force warriors to sit there doing nothing for 3-4 seconds sometimes, and that's not exactly ideal in an "active" game.
Idejder Jul 31, 2007 at 12:10 am
+2 votes
I disagree about your opinions of disarm. Melee have to be in range and ranged classes need LOS, which I am sure the hunters here would love to argue with you about which they would prefer to be a limitation. With intercept and hamstring along with all of the other tools warriors have (spec, shouts, trinket, etc) really reduce that out-of-range limitation a lot.
This is not the only reason for this, as its still only a rather long CD for disarms, but it is another way to stop a warrior's burst. If he is bloodlusted with windfury on, that would be a key time to coordinate a disarm, would it not? I feel this will will add more options to stopping the warrior beatdown for at least a few seconds along with giving melee a real way to "help" a healer, which they lack atm.
On Hamstring:
I know very few warriors who cannot fill a 3 second gap. If you Hamstring then Mortal Strike, you need to wait ~~.5 seconds to Hamstring again. I dont see that as gamebreaking in any way.
This is not the only reason for this, as its still only a rather long CD for disarms, but it is another way to stop a warrior's burst. If he is bloodlusted with windfury on, that would be a key time to coordinate a disarm, would it not? I feel this will will add more options to stopping the warrior beatdown for at least a few seconds along with giving melee a real way to "help" a healer, which they lack atm.
On Hamstring:
I know very few warriors who cannot fill a 3 second gap. If you Hamstring then Mortal Strike, you need to wait ~~.5 seconds to Hamstring again. I dont see that as gamebreaking in any way.
zagzil Jul 31, 2007 at 12:56 am
+1 votes
I guess I can be swayed on the disarm immunity (I really don't feel it will be extremely helpful, as only 2 classes can disarm and only one on command), but I really don't feel like the hamstring nerf makes sense -
A typical warrior might charge-hamstring-MS-WW-hamstring. After that sequence you pretty much have nothing to press for 3 seconds, and that's just not how melee have played in this game since day 1. I personally cannot stand the inactivity of playing a caster class (sitting and casting a 2.5 second spell feels like ages) and the ability of melee to always be spamming abilities (more or less) was something appealling and unique to melee classes. Taking that away takes a real core difference between casters and melee, and that's something I don't particularly agree with.
A typical warrior might charge-hamstring-MS-WW-hamstring. After that sequence you pretty much have nothing to press for 3 seconds, and that's just not how melee have played in this game since day 1. I personally cannot stand the inactivity of playing a caster class (sitting and casting a 2.5 second spell feels like ages) and the ability of melee to always be spamming abilities (more or less) was something appealling and unique to melee classes. Taking that away takes a real core difference between casters and melee, and that's something I don't particularly agree with.
zagzil Jul 31, 2007 at 12:57 am
+1 votes
Ugh, not to spam but also-
If you miss/dodge/parry a hamstring and it's on 3 second CD, your target is basically gone. That's a huge nerf in arena play.
If you miss/dodge/parry a hamstring and it's on 3 second CD, your target is basically gone. That's a huge nerf in arena play.
Idejder Jul 31, 2007 at 1:56 am
+2 votes
I can see both sides of it honestly, and I truly feel it would not be game breaking and you would find that it is not as bad as you think it is when it is in action.
Ever want to give opinions on game and class balance in WoW? Post a comment about my thoughts and let me know. Every idea is a step in the right direction. Disclaimer: No I do not work for Blizzard.
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