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by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at July 5, 2009, 8:05 am
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Went on the PTR briefly last night, wasn't expecting much because there wasn't any real rogue changes, and without tier 9 / season 7 gear, the resilience change is absolutely devastating to the beloved rogue class. If you think the last PTR dueling event was difficult for rogues, this one is even worse as it is harder than ever to drop someone before you run out of cooldowns with resilience change slowing down the tempo. RMP will be very vulnerable to DK/lock/druid type of teams, at least earlier in the season, with DOT damage staying as is and RMP taking a flat 12% damage reduction. Rogue/lock synergy is probably not strong enough to beat DK/lock or warrior/lock. Destruction still has the same problem when it comes to getting an opening to nuke away, and your nukes won't hurt as much as it does now to end the fight instantly if left open.
Retribution paladin/warlock synergy superior to rogue/warlock synergy?
Yes, even in 3.2. Seal of vengeance does amazing sustained/burst damage, puts up a ton of trash debuffs to cover warlock DOTs, and comes with its own DOT unaffected by the 3.2 resilience change. Hammer of justice is every bit as effective as kidney shot if there is enough DOTs on the target to prevent dispel. Repentance is a long range blind on a shorter CD that does not share diminishing returns with fear. Blessing of protection/freedom is huge for warlock vs cleave teams, and cleanse coupled with fel hunter actually provides some decent defensive dispels.
A lot of people overreacted on the retribution burst changes, from my experience on PTR it is still one untrinketed hammer of justice and you are out, don't expect rogues to beat retribution paladins any time soon. They can literally stand there with a shield + one hand and flash of light off art of war procs + sacred shield to beat any warrior/rogue, without doing anything else. You should see more healing coming out of retribution paladins in 3.2 arena, and ret/affliction/healer should be one of the top teams. It gives them the damage of a double DPS team and the durability of a double healer team, and you have more flexibility in healer options than warrior/lock or dk/lock as well. The defensive stops ret bring to the table really help priest/shaman.
Affliction with some sort of DOT/envenom build may be interesting however. I tried dropping improved eviscerate (and a few points from lethality) for improved poisons/blood spatter. It is interesting in duels against heavy armor for sure, and some Korean rogues already run a similar build in 3.1. It probably won't work with RMP but should be a lot more effective with warlock comps. Deadly poison provides outstanding wound protection against shaman/druid teams, and with the attack power coefficient change, it is serious damage. I may even drop dual wield spec for 10% attack power (especially when using a fast offhand) like 41/0/30 to max out the DOTs. I saw this build in action against heavy armor in last PTR's rogue duels, it was pretty solid and hopefully, we will see it getting some main stream arena action to offer some variety to 41/5/25.
41/0/30 DOT: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0xfojToiroczZZebfbh0dbV:fiT
Shadow Dance Hero Reckful Goes Mutilate, & BG9
With Exodus, Reckful-kun's old guild suspended from the whole Yogg Saron fiasco, the shadow dance hero transferred to BG9 and in just one week his dual-comp (Rogue/Mage/Priest and Rogue/Ret/Priest) team hit the second spot.
Unfortunately, even the man who made shadow dance relevant is no longer playing the spec today, and with the upcoming resilience changes further hurting burst damage across the board, it is hard to imagine ambush/backstab coming back into action any time soon.
"Shadow dance would be a great spec if improved ambush increased ambush damage by 50% instead of 50% crit chance. 25% crit damage reduction makes your crits 50% less effective (+100% damage is now +50% damage), that is why I favor AP by an even bigger margin for 3.2." - Reckful
And it is hard to argue with the player who stayed with the spec for so long. Having said that, I think Reckful has the best blend of PVP/PVE gear of any rogue right now, can anyone beat his stats as 41/5/25 (with engineering + pyro rocket, which accounts for 100 base AP vs someone who doesn't have engineering):

On the other side of the spectrum
Litreocola put together a very interesting 27/0/44 shadowstep spec with full agility gem stacking. The result is pretty fear inspiring, 4236 attack power, 40.74% crit and 33% dodge. That is without any serious Uldular gear.

Subtlety's 10% AP and 15% agility scale amazingly well with late expansion gear, and with T9/S7 around the corner, will we see deep subtlety taking a big step forward? Cheat death and shadow step probably still can't match-up to deadly brew's double wound goodness and mutilate's vastly superior damage per energy, but with stats like Litre's it is getting interesting, probably a hemo buff away from going main stream.
I thought of a lot of ways Blizzard can buff hemo, but the easiest solution is probably making the debuff scale with attack power. 75 damage with glyph is 105 damage, not terrible at the start of S5, a joke at end of S7. Mutilate got its biggest buff with wound poison / deadly brew changes, if hemo added say, 300 damage to all of your white hits, 27/0/44 will definitely be a mainstream spec.
Also, with serrated blade offering armor penetration earlier in the tree, perhaps filthy tricks should provide resilience penetration? Shadow dance on one minute cooldown is great, but ambush still needs to do enough damage against high resilience targets. When a shadow dance kidney shot does similar damage of a mutilate kidney shot (keep in mind mutilate can take improved kidney shot), something is wrong.

126 comments
Redefined Jul 5, 2009 at 8:20 am
-3 votes
Trivvium said
first
edit ******* fail asdkhajkshdakshdas
edit ******* fail asdkhajkshdakshdas
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 8:34 am
+40 votes
Oh wow so much bull**** about ret.
Seal of vengeance does amazing sustained/burst damage
The burstdamage is pisspoor. 900 ticks 3,5k crit judgements, gz.
Hammer of justice is every bit as effective as kidney shot if there is enough DOTs on the target to prevent dispel.
Yeah except it's on a 40 sec timer. The difference is huge.
Repentance is a long range blind on a shorter CD that does not share diminishing returns with fear.
Yeah except it can be dispell and is 6 sec. I'm not whining here, just pointing out the huge differences.
A lot of people overreacted on the retribution burst changes, from my
experience on PTR it is still one untrinketed hammer of justice and you
are out
Um yeah, at least try to wear epics.
The defensive stops and mana regen ret bring to the table really help priest/shaman.
What? You realize that replenishment doesn't work in PvP anymore, right? Also you can't just let the ret heal alone to let your healer get drinks off. Not going to work.
That said I'm still looking forward to this combo, could be really huge. Downvotes because of kids who got raped by ret inc.
Seal of vengeance does amazing sustained/burst damage
The burstdamage is pisspoor. 900 ticks 3,5k crit judgements, gz.
Hammer of justice is every bit as effective as kidney shot if there is enough DOTs on the target to prevent dispel.
Yeah except it's on a 40 sec timer. The difference is huge.
Repentance is a long range blind on a shorter CD that does not share diminishing returns with fear.
Yeah except it can be dispell and is 6 sec. I'm not whining here, just pointing out the huge differences.
A lot of people overreacted on the retribution burst changes, from my
experience on PTR it is still one untrinketed hammer of justice and you
are out
Um yeah, at least try to wear epics.
The defensive stops and mana regen ret bring to the table really help priest/shaman.
What? You realize that replenishment doesn't work in PvP anymore, right? Also you can't just let the ret heal alone to let your healer get drinks off. Not going to work.
That said I'm still looking forward to this combo, could be really huge. Downvotes because of kids who got raped by ret inc.
Horrible Jul 5, 2009 at 8:43 am
+2 votes
seriously, these ret changes are bull****, don't get how you can still be complaining about them being op.
Coming from a priests point of view, healing through a ret+warlock is a joke compared to any ms class+warlock.
Coming from a priests point of view, healing through a ret+warlock is a joke compared to any ms class+warlock.
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 9:37 am
+4 votes
Wouldn't worry yiska, you see this bull**** from clowns even over on AJ etc (usually a rogue priest or mage, coincidentally)
Everyone with a clue knows ret is terrible in 3.2, the nerfs are VERY heavy
It's just a case of "oh ret sucks now, i'll play them up to look good..dont want them getting real changes!"
Still disagree with you on lock/ret/x btw, and ming too..it definatly wont be a top comp in 3.2; if it would work then it'd be working now seeing as ret is superior currently in almost every aspect bar dispel protection which you can do now anyway (which is not a reason for a comp to be good) the amount of lockdown/peeling a dk or a rogue brings for the lock far outweighs having one bop and freedoms (especially seeing as with no snare, he'd need to be popping it on himself)
meh whatever, it'll be a laugh to try but it's gonna be a joke..just wait and see
Everyone with a clue knows ret is terrible in 3.2, the nerfs are VERY heavy
It's just a case of "oh ret sucks now, i'll play them up to look good..dont want them getting real changes!"
Still disagree with you on lock/ret/x btw, and ming too..it definatly wont be a top comp in 3.2; if it would work then it'd be working now seeing as ret is superior currently in almost every aspect bar dispel protection which you can do now anyway (which is not a reason for a comp to be good) the amount of lockdown/peeling a dk or a rogue brings for the lock far outweighs having one bop and freedoms (especially seeing as with no snare, he'd need to be popping it on himself)
meh whatever, it'll be a laugh to try but it's gonna be a joke..just wait and see
Fuuga Jul 5, 2009 at 3:39 pm
+2 votes
Moogz said
Wouldn't worry yiska, you see this bull**** from clowns even over on AJ etc (usually a rogue priest or mage, coincidentally)
Everyone with a clue knows ret is terrible in 3.2, the nerfs are VERY heavy
It's just a case of "oh ret sucks now, i'll play them up to look good..dont want them getting real changes!"
Still disagree with you on lock/ret/x btw, and ming too..it definatly wont be a top comp in 3.2; if it would work then it'd be working now seeing as ret is superior currently in almost every aspect bar dispel protection which you can do now anyway (which is not a reason for a comp to be good) the amount of lockdown/peeling a dk or a rogue brings for the lock far outweighs having one bop and freedoms (especially seeing as with no snare, he'd need to be popping it on himself)
meh whatever, it'll be a laugh to try but it's gonna be a joke..just wait and see
Everyone with a clue knows ret is terrible in 3.2, the nerfs are VERY heavy
It's just a case of "oh ret sucks now, i'll play them up to look good..dont want them getting real changes!"
Still disagree with you on lock/ret/x btw, and ming too..it definatly wont be a top comp in 3.2; if it would work then it'd be working now seeing as ret is superior currently in almost every aspect bar dispel protection which you can do now anyway (which is not a reason for a comp to be good) the amount of lockdown/peeling a dk or a rogue brings for the lock far outweighs having one bop and freedoms (especially seeing as with no snare, he'd need to be popping it on himself)
meh whatever, it'll be a laugh to try but it's gonna be a joke..just wait and see
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 3:59 pm
-1 votes
Fuuga said
Ret/lock/heals does work now btw. No opinion on whether it is better than the other lock/heal/melee comps, but it does work.
RLS, lock/dk/x etc are far better, the only half decent ret/healer/caster is mage disc ret imo
Cleave will always be a better comp for a ret unless casters or ret get ms (or locks dont need to be babysitted so much by a rogue)
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 9:41 am
+1 votes
mung said
SoV is probably better than SoB tbh, it's really good dmg when you're hitting a target with a 5 stack. The judgement dmg isn't anything amazing but 4-5k on 1k resilience isn't bad at all and it's much better than judging blood is right now
(all of this is on ptr)
(all of this is on ptr)
More burst, much much easier to swap, judging out of CC, more frontload
The only department it's worse in is the judgement
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 10:06 am
-3 votes
judging out of cc bugs 90% of the time and it doesn't have more frontload when you can get a 5 stack sov ticking for 1k and the seal hitting for the same dmg as SoB does now on top.
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 10:13 am
+5 votes
mung said
judging out of cc bugs 90% of the time and it doesn't have more frontload when you can get a 5 stack sov ticking for 1k and the seal hitting for the same dmg as SoB does now on top.
SoV doesn't tick for 1k vs resi
SoV at 5 stack doesn't swing anywhere close to SoB, SoB is like 48%? weap damage and SoV is 33%
It's cool trying to put a silver lining on it but spreading **** like it BEING BETTER is laughable, anyone with a half a clue knows ret will be a joke in 3.2
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 11:19 am
+0 votes
mung said
yes it does
33% weapondmg is close to 48%
you are a bad player trying to sound pro, you might judge 1 out of 500 cc's and when you do it's by accident
33% weapondmg is close to 48%
you are a bad player trying to sound pro, you might judge 1 out of 500 cc's and when you do it's by accident
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 11:59 am
+0 votes
mung said
you don't play at a highlevel
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 12:15 pm
-3 votes
Nah but seriously, I think it was a pretty huge deal especially against RMP. It definitely increased the rets skillcap, which is a good thing (I think we can agree on this).
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 12:10 pm
+6 votes
mung said
yes it does
33% weapondmg is close to 48%
you are a bad player trying to sound pro, you might judge 1 out of 500 cc's and when you do it's by accident
33% weapondmg is close to 48%
you are a bad player trying to sound pro, you might judge 1 out of 500 cc's and when you do it's by accident
48% is a **** load more damage per swing than 33% :/ consider in good ret gear buffed your topend damage is around 2500~ you do the math
Didn't realise top10 wasn't high level play either - that goes for me and yiska, btw
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 12:24 pm
+0 votes
Paladin mechanics are so ****** up. Play some Paladin against Kalimist and see how he KS your ******* holyshocks. It's ridiculous.
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 pm
+1 votes
mung said
both of you click everything except 1-5 and post on gameriot 2 try sound pro also got duelist until s5
Trying to make you realise you're an idiot? yep
You've been wrong about everything, i'd tell you to give up but it's clear you've got the other mouth breathers on side and love it too much to stop; you were doing well until you know, you brought up the rating card, got called then resorted to LOLOLCLICKER OBV CLICKER
Do whatcha gotta do to appeal to other idiots i guess
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 1:57 pm
-3 votes
there's no being called at all no one cares about you and you suck dick
have fun being back in the 1400's next patch, you belong there
have fun being back in the 1400's next patch, you belong there
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 2:17 pm
+1 votes
mung said
both of you click everything except 1-5 and post on gameriot 2 try sound pro also got duelist until s5
NoblemanPyrrho Jul 5, 2009 at 6:58 pm
+2 votes
i carried mung to number 1 once; don't make me do it again
charlieX Jul 5, 2009 at 7:18 pm
+4 votes
Heh, challenger yiska had a hardtime breaking 2.2k with dk + holy during s5.
s6 go ret go pro ::DD:DDD:DDD
s6 go ret go pro ::DD:DDD:DDD
Yiska Jul 6, 2009 at 4:39 am
+1 votes
charlieX said
Heh, challenger yiska had a hardtime breaking 2.2k with dk + holy during s5.
s6 go ret go pro ::DD:DDD:DDD
s6 go ret go pro ::DD:DDD:DDD
Yiska Jul 6, 2009 at 10:11 am
+1 votes
charlieX said
WTF u need hand for? use face.
Yiska Jul 6, 2009 at 4:46 am
+1 votes
PS: The real reason for our success is, that Noxxroxx was able to play druid again and could carry us like in TBC :X NOXXROXX BEST
Gimik Jul 5, 2009 at 1:21 pm
+5 votes
Ret is still missing an MS, snare, and an interupt they are no comparison to rogues. You either run with a class that can do a few of those things or you make a gimicky burst comp which probably won't be viable next season anyways. Have you ever played ret before ming? TT
Shizbam Jul 5, 2009 at 4:07 pm
+3 votes
Guys SOB judging is bugged, when I can't do it right it doesn't work but like sometimes it works when I accidently do it right.
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