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by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at July 5, 2009, 8:05 am
Hope all the readers had a good July 4th!  We stayed local this year for obvious reasons, how was your weekend?

Went on the PTR briefly last night, wasn't expecting much because there wasn't any real rogue changes, and without tier 9 / season 7 gear, the resilience change is absolutely devastating to the beloved rogue class.  If you think the last PTR dueling event was difficult for rogues, this one is even worse as it is harder than ever to drop someone before you run out of cooldowns with resilience change slowing down the tempo.  RMP will be very vulnerable to DK/lock/druid type of teams, at least earlier in the season, with DOT damage staying as is and RMP taking a flat 12% damage reduction.  Rogue/lock synergy is probably not strong enough to beat DK/lock or warrior/lock.  Destruction still has the same problem when it comes to getting an opening to nuke away, and your nukes won't hurt as much as it does now to end the fight instantly if left open. 

Retribution paladin/warlock synergy superior to rogue/warlock synergy?

Yes, even in 3.2.  Seal of vengeance does amazing sustained/burst damage, puts up a ton of trash debuffs to cover warlock DOTs, and comes with its own DOT unaffected by the 3.2 resilience change.  Hammer of justice is every bit as effective as kidney shot if there is enough DOTs on the target to prevent dispel.  Repentance is a long range blind on a shorter CD that does not share diminishing returns with fear.  Blessing of protection/freedom is huge for warlock vs cleave teams, and cleanse coupled with fel hunter actually provides some decent defensive dispels. 

A lot of people overreacted on the retribution burst changes, from my experience on PTR it is still one untrinketed hammer of justice and you are out, don't expect rogues to beat retribution paladins any time soon.  They can literally stand there with a shield + one hand and flash of light off art of war procs + sacred shield to beat any warrior/rogue, without doing anything else.  You should see more healing coming out of retribution paladins in 3.2 arena, and ret/affliction/healer should be one of the top teams.  It gives them the damage of a double DPS team and the durability of a double healer team, and you have more flexibility in healer options than warrior/lock or dk/lock as well.  The defensive stops ret bring to the table really help priest/shaman.

Affliction with some sort of DOT/envenom build may be interesting however.  I tried dropping improved eviscerate (and a few points from lethality) for improved poisons/blood spatter.  It is interesting in duels against heavy armor for sure, and some Korean rogues already run a similar build in 3.1.  It probably won't work with RMP but should be a lot more effective with warlock comps.  Deadly poison provides outstanding wound protection against shaman/druid teams, and with the attack power coefficient change, it is serious damage.  I may even drop dual wield spec for 10% attack power (especially when using a fast offhand) like 41/0/30 to max out the DOTs.  I saw this build in action against heavy armor in last PTR's rogue duels, it was pretty solid and hopefully, we will see it getting some main stream arena action to offer some variety to 41/5/25.

41/0/30 DOT: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0xfojToiroczZZebfbh0dbV:fiT

Shadow Dance Hero Reckful Goes Mutilate, & BG9

With Exodus, Reckful-kun's old guild suspended from the whole Yogg Saron fiasco, the shadow dance hero transferred to BG9 and in just one week his dual-comp (Rogue/Mage/Priest and Rogue/Ret/Priest) team hit the second spot

Unfortunately, even the man who made shadow dance relevant is no longer playing the spec today, and with the upcoming resilience changes further hurting burst damage across the board, it is hard to imagine ambush/backstab coming back into action any time soon.

"Shadow dance would be a great spec if improved ambush increased ambush damage by 50% instead of 50% crit chance.  25% crit damage reduction makes your crits 50% less effective (+100% damage is now +50% damage), that is why I favor AP by an even bigger margin for 3.2." - Reckful

And it is hard to argue with the player who stayed with the spec for so long.  Having said that, I think Reckful has the best blend of PVP/PVE gear of any rogue right now, can anyone beat his stats as 41/5/25 (with engineering + pyro rocket, which accounts for 100 base AP vs someone who doesn't have engineering):



On the other side of the spectrum

Litreocola put together a very interesting 27/0/44 shadowstep spec with full agility gem stacking.  The result is pretty fear inspiring, 4236 attack power, 40.74% crit and 33% dodge.  That is without any serious Uldular gear.



Subtlety's 10% AP and 15% agility scale amazingly well with late expansion gear, and with T9/S7 around the corner, will we see deep subtlety taking a big step forward?  Cheat death and shadow step probably still can't match-up to deadly brew's double wound goodness and mutilate's vastly superior damage per energy, but with stats like Litre's it is getting interesting, probably a hemo buff away from going main stream.

I thought of a lot of ways Blizzard can buff hemo, but the easiest solution is probably making the debuff scale with attack power.  75 damage with glyph is 105 damage, not terrible at the start of S5, a joke at end of S7.  Mutilate got its biggest buff with wound poison / deadly brew changes, if hemo added say, 300 damage to all of your white hits, 27/0/44 will definitely be a mainstream spec.

Also, with serrated blade offering armor penetration earlier in the tree, perhaps filthy tricks should provide resilience penetration?  Shadow dance on one minute cooldown is great, but ambush still needs to do enough damage against high resilience targets.  When a shadow dance kidney shot does similar damage of a mutilate kidney shot (keep in mind mutilate can take improved kidney shot), something is wrong. 
     
126 comments
Field
Field Jul 5, 2009 at 8:07 am
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Crimzon86
Crimzon86 Jul 5, 2009 at 9:31 am unhide comment
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Crimzon86
Crimzon86 Jul 5, 2009 at 12:33 pm unhide comment
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Godsmak
Godsmak Jul 5, 2009 at 2:23 pm
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Trivvium
Trivvium Jul 5, 2009 at 8:14 am unhide comment
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Redefined
Redefined Jul 5, 2009 at 8:20 am
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Trivvium said
first


edit ******* fail asdkhajkshdakshdas
Get raped.
Flickz
Flickz Jul 5, 2009 at 9:26 am
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Go and play your mage and stop posting.
virtualis
virtualis Jul 5, 2009 at 8:29 am
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I WANT TO SEE A SHS OR KSPREE VIDEO!!
Yiska
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 8:34 am
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Oh wow so much bull**** about ret.

Seal of vengeance does amazing sustained/burst damage

The burstdamage is pisspoor. 900 ticks 3,5k crit judgements, gz.

Hammer of justice is every bit as effective as kidney shot if there is enough DOTs on the target to prevent dispel.
Yeah except it's on a 40 sec timer. The difference is huge.

Repentance is a long range blind on a shorter CD that does not share diminishing returns with fear.
Yeah except it can be dispell and is 6 sec. I'm not whining here, just pointing out the huge differences.

A lot of people overreacted on the retribution burst changes, from my
experience on PTR it is still one untrinketed hammer of justice and you
are out

Um yeah, at least try to wear epics.

The defensive stops and mana regen ret bring to the table really help priest/shaman.
What? You realize that replenishment doesn't work in PvP anymore, right? Also you can't just let the ret heal alone to let your healer get drinks off. Not going to work.

That said I'm still looking forward to this combo, could be really huge. Downvotes because of kids who got raped by ret inc.
Horrible
Horrible Jul 5, 2009 at 8:43 am
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seriously, these ret changes are bull****, don't get how you can still be complaining about them being op.

Coming from a priests point of view, healing through a ret+warlock is a joke compared to any ms class+warlock.
glick
glick Jul 5, 2009 at 8:44 am
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lol like ming actually knows what hes talking about
DeadLy
DeadLy Jul 5, 2009 at 8:49 am
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Moogz
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 9:37 am
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Wouldn't worry yiska, you see this bull**** from clowns even over on AJ etc (usually a rogue priest or mage, coincidentally)

Everyone with a clue knows ret is terrible in 3.2, the nerfs are VERY heavy

It's just a case of "oh ret sucks now, i'll play them up to look good..dont want them getting real changes!"

Still disagree with you on lock/ret/x btw, and ming too..it definatly wont be a top comp in 3.2; if it would work then it'd be working now seeing as ret is superior currently in almost every aspect bar dispel protection which you can do now anyway (which is not a reason for a comp to be good) the amount of lockdown/peeling a dk or a rogue brings for the lock far outweighs having one bop and freedoms (especially seeing as with no snare, he'd need to be popping it on himself)

meh whatever, it'll be a laugh to try but it's gonna be a joke..just wait and see
Fuuga
Fuuga Jul 5, 2009 at 3:39 pm
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Moogz said
Wouldn't worry yiska, you see this bull**** from clowns even over on AJ etc (usually a rogue priest or mage, coincidentally)

Everyone with a clue knows ret is terrible in 3.2, the nerfs are VERY heavy

It's just a case of "oh ret sucks now, i'll play them up to look good..dont want them getting real changes!"

Still disagree with you on lock/ret/x btw, and ming too..it definatly wont be a top comp in 3.2; if it would work then it'd be working now seeing as ret is superior currently in almost every aspect bar dispel protection which you can do now anyway (which is not a reason for a comp to be good) the amount of lockdown/peeling a dk or a rogue brings for the lock far outweighs having one bop and freedoms (especially seeing as with no snare, he'd need to be popping it on himself)

meh whatever, it'll be a laugh to try but it's gonna be a joke..just wait and see
Ret/lock/heals does work now btw. No opinion on whether it is better than the other lock/heal/melee comps, but it does work.
Moogz
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 3:59 pm
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Fuuga said
Ret/lock/heals does work now btw. No opinion on whether it is better than the other lock/heal/melee comps, but it does work.
Well there are loads of comps that "work" i guess i should've been more clear and said it won't be a high tier/competitive comp, let alone competition level.

RLS, lock/dk/x etc are far better, the only half decent ret/healer/caster is mage disc ret imo

Cleave will always be a better comp for a ret unless casters or ret get ms (or locks dont need to be babysitted so much by a rogue)
mung
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 9:34 am unhide comment
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Moogz
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 9:41 am
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mung said
SoV is probably better than SoB tbh, it's really good dmg when you're hitting a target with a 5 stack.  The judgement dmg isn't anything amazing but 4-5k on 1k resilience isn't bad at all and it's much better than judging blood is right now

(all of this is on ptr)
Blood is far far far better than SoV :<

More burst, much much easier to swap, judging out of CC, more frontload

The only department it's worse in is the judgement
mung
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 10:06 am
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judging out of cc bugs 90% of the time and it doesn't have more frontload when you can get a 5 stack sov ticking for 1k and the seal hitting for the same dmg as SoB does now on top.
Moogz
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 10:13 am
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mung said
judging out of cc bugs 90% of the time and it doesn't have more frontload when you can get a 5 stack sov ticking for 1k and the seal hitting for the same dmg as SoB does now on top.
Clearly you don't even understand what frontload means then, blood judging doesnt bug either it's just a much tighter timing than SW: D

SoV doesn't tick for 1k vs resi

SoV at 5 stack doesn't swing anywhere close to SoB, SoB is like 48%? weap damage and SoV is 33%

It's cool trying to put a silver lining on it but spreading **** like it BEING BETTER is laughable, anyone with a half a clue knows ret will be a joke in 3.2
mung
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 10:58 am unhide comment
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Yiska
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 11:19 am
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mung said
yes it does
33% weapondmg is close to 48%
you are a bad player trying to sound pro, you might judge 1 out of 500 cc's and when you do it's by accident
I wouldn't dare to flame the faction, but judging CC is pretty much a bread and butter skill for a highlevel ret :) It's only inconsistent on shielded targets.
mung
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 11:53 am unhide comment
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Yiska
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 11:59 am
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mung said
you don't play at a highlevel
Did you really just downvote me? Heh.
mung
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 12:01 pm unhide comment
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Yiska
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 12:15 pm
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Nah but seriously, I think it was a pretty huge deal especially against RMP. It definitely increased the rets skillcap, which is a good thing (I think we can agree on this).
Moogz
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 12:10 pm
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mung said
yes it does
33% weapondmg is close to 48%
you are a bad player trying to sound pro, you might judge 1 out of 500 cc's and when you do it's by accident
Judging bugs if you do it too late, then nothing happens and it goes on CD. Not my fault you suck

48% is a **** load more damage per swing than 33% :/ consider in good ret gear buffed your topend damage is around 2500~ you do the math

Didn't realise top10 wasn't high level play either - that goes for me and yiska, btw
Yiska
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 12:24 pm
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Paladin mechanics are so ****** up. Play some Paladin against Kalimist and see how he KS your ******* holyshocks. It's ridiculous.
mung
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 12:53 pm unhide comment
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Moogz
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 1:50 pm
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mung said
both of you click everything except 1-5 and post on gameriot 2 try sound pro also got duelist until s5
Trying to sound pro? nope

Trying to make you realise you're an idiot? yep

You've been wrong about everything, i'd tell you to give up but it's clear you've got the other mouth breathers on side and love it too much to stop; you were doing well until you know, you brought up the rating card, got called then resorted to LOLOLCLICKER OBV CLICKER :-(

Do whatcha gotta do to appeal to other idiots i guess
mung
mung Jul 5, 2009 at 1:57 pm
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there's no being called at all no one cares about you and you suck dick

have fun being back in the 1400's next patch, you belong there
Yiska
Yiska Jul 5, 2009 at 2:17 pm
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mung said
both of you click everything except 1-5 and post on gameriot 2 try sound pro also got duelist until s5
Sorry 4 season glad in tbc on multiple classes :(
NoblemanPyrrho
NoblemanPyrrho Jul 5, 2009 at 6:58 pm
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i carried mung to number 1 once; don't make me do it again
charlieX
charlieX Jul 5, 2009 at 7:18 pm
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Heh, challenger yiska had a hardtime breaking 2.2k with dk + holy during s5.
s6 go ret go pro ::DD:DDD:DDD
Yiska
Yiska Jul 6, 2009 at 4:39 am
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charlieX said
Heh, challenger yiska had a hardtime breaking 2.2k with dk + holy during s5.
s6 go ret go pro ::DD:DDD:DDD
Yeah because holy was so much harder to play than ret. If you knew the backround you know that we wanted to push for glad (which we did on 2 other dk pals for gold earlier) but I broke my middlehand 3 weeks before cutoff. Adorverina? If yes that would explain a lot :X
charlieX
charlieX Jul 6, 2009 at 9:32 am
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Yiska
Yiska Jul 6, 2009 at 10:11 am
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charlieX said
WTF u need hand for? use face.
:D Actually quite true. Unfortunately I scratched my nose aswell, my sis kicked the ladder while I was cutting an appletree.
Yiska
Yiska Jul 6, 2009 at 4:46 am
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PS: The real reason for our success is, that Noxxroxx was able to play druid again and could carry us like in TBC :X NOXXROXX BEST
Gimik
Gimik Jul 5, 2009 at 1:21 pm
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Ret is still missing an MS, snare, and an interupt they are no comparison to rogues. You either run with a class that can do a few of those things or you make a gimicky burst comp which probably won't be viable next season anyways. Have you ever played ret before ming? TT
Pastagri
Pastagri Jul 5, 2009 at 2:17 pm
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You guys are arguing with a guy named 'mung'.
Moogz
Moogz Jul 5, 2009 at 2:44 pm
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60 sec cd hammer if you're using SoV btw yiska!
Shizbam
Shizbam Jul 5, 2009 at 4:07 pm
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Guys SOB judging is bugged, when I can't do it right it doesn't work but like sometimes it works when I accidently do it right.

Halp
Sabella
Sabella Jul 5, 2009 at 8:36 am
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HalpItsEstel
HalpItsEstel Jul 5, 2009 at 4:09 pm
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phlare
phlare Jul 5, 2009 at 8:09 pm
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Then her articles would still suck.
Bald
Bald Jul 6, 2009 at 5:17 am
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+1 votes
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