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by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at October 4, 2009, 3:30 am
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The latest chains of ice change on PTR puts it on diminishing returns against itself. I have been in many 1v1's against DKs at end of matches, all the DK has to do is get out of melee range once and I get perma kited by COI spams while his DOTs do the work. And I am sure we have all experienced the joy of infinite COI spams after death grip, while you are trying to get to his healer.
A long range ability with so much stopping power definitely should be on some sort of DRs, but will Blizzard give DKs something to compensate? They are the only class without a top comp on SK-100 3v3.
3.2.2: Death Of Double Melee?
It is strange how less than two months ago, every time the gate opens I can expect some form of double melee team on the other side. Today? I see double caster teams more often than I see double melee teams, and on SK-100 3v3 ladder, every comp has at least one ranged. The second highest rated comp, lock/mage/shaman uses two. The stats doesn't even illustrate the ease for casters to put together a wizard cleave team, as you can throw any two PVP capable caster specs into a team, and you get results. BG9's second highest team runs warlock/elemental shaman/discipline priest.
What happened to classic cleave teams like the TSG and the many variations of warrior/ret, warrior/DK teams? Two casters with 2700 spell damage and bloodlust, hard casting into one melee, that is what happened. You could outmana a double caster team back in TBC, here in WOTLK with the match played at a much quicker pace, not to mention all the replenishment options, mana is never an issue. All it takes is a blanket counterspell and two casters getting off their hard casts on one target at same time, and it is a sure kill. Heck destruction warlock and elemental shaman are more than capable of solo 12-15K bursts on full resilience targets, and in 3.2.2 we can add arcane mage and marksman hunters (not a true caster, I know, but unless it is a plate, same result) into the mix.
But it is not damage alone that makes double caster teams dominant. It is also the defensive capabilities. Who are you going to kill? Destruction warlock? With the possible exception of beast cleave (STILL a top comp), no team can reliably drop a destruction warlock. Their damage reduction is out of this world and the 30 second teleport with another DPS peeling is enough to shut down any rushdowns. Frost mages? Again, unless you have a hunter on your team, you don't go on the mage, too many roots/snares. Elemental shaman? Nasty 30% damage reduction when stunned (and you are forced to stun him to stop the hard casts), 20 yard AOE knock back, 52% physical damage reduction with shield on top of 6% overall damage reduction, AOE roots and stone claw totem for 4500 instant shields (basically a 30 second CD battlemaster that stacks with the real battlemaster). This class is meant to survive assist trains in 5v5.
And by the way, I don't think moonkins and shadowpriests are lacking in survivability, give them some easy instant 10K nukes and they will be right there. And let's not forget the vastly superior CCs casters have over melee. The only success we had against wizard cleave as rogue/ret/priest is training the healer. Try to get a sap on the warlock, train the shaman while blowing all of our defensive cooldowns (cloak, bubble) offensively first 20 seconds of the fight, throwing all of our CCs on the warlock, priest pain suppression instead of healing so he can get off some DPS too. Even then, any time we go past the 1 minute mark against wizard cleave, it is an auto-loss because it is too many CCs and too much damage. And that is with two defensive dispels for immolation's and flame shocks.
Believe it or not, I actually believe wizard cleave is good for the game, as it really adds variety to comp choices for every class. I have watched caster cleave mirrors, they are a lot more fun to watch than RMP mirrors and there is a lot of skills involved when it comes to landing and denying the sure kills. However, immolation/flame shock -> nuke's are just too easy to land, and pretty much requires you to have a priest on your team to be able to deal with it effectively. Blizzard need to look at what they did to retribution paladins and increase the number of GCDs it takes to get those nukes off. Caster cleave is very strong with the CCs as it is, they really don't need IWIN buttons.
ESL Financial Troubles Greatly Exaggerated
As the reality of the job market sets in, the second leg of the double dip recession is about to kick in. Programs like cash for clunker, $8000 first time home buyer credit can only take you so far. The economy is still supported by income afterall. As a responsible tax payer who never lived above my means, it simply disgusts me that tax payer dollars are spent to "keep people in their homes", like the 40K a year school teacher who bought a 500K house with no money down, who are you kidding?
In any case, the next 12 months will be critical for many gaming sites/organizations. It is all about survival and if you can get out of this stretch alive, you are going to be around for many, many years to come.
ESL TV is coming back with a reloaded weekly show, and this time around they will greatly increase PVE coverage, a very smart move consider this allows them to reach a much broader audience. The Intel Extreme Masters tournament also continued in Chengdu, China (admittedly no WOTLK, as the game is not even out in China), where Chinese players Fly100%/Sky won 1st and 3rd spots in WC3 against the likes of Moon/Grubby.
And with three more international events coming, it sure doesn't look like an organization out of cash. Then again WSVG had grand plans when they folded too . . .
October 17th-24th 2009 DUBAI - Global Challenge Dubai
Februrary 12th-14th 2010 TAIPEI - Asian Championship Finals
March 4th-7th 2010 HANNOVER - World Championship Final
Can Anyone Beat A Top Frost Mage In A Best Of 5 Duel?
Boy I remember the times when mages had hard counters, but Flyn, the mage who plays with Hydra and until now, lived in his shadows is really coming out with a serious challenge (thanks Yiska).
Arena rules (what goes in arena goes here), best of 5 duels with full cooldowns, you beat him you win 10000 gold, you lose you only pay 500. 20:1 odd sure sounds good, but so far, no one has been able to take 10000 off him, and he is playing on the #1 server in Europe, Stormscale.
I am wondering why haven't a feral druid challenged him yet. With instant cyclones off 5 point finishers to heal back to full, complete immunity to sheep/roots, huge damage reduction during deep freeze stuns, that is one class he should have a hard time against.
Either way, it is sad that rogues are simply non-factors in duels these days. What used to be a classic match-up is now a joke for any top frost mage. I really hope 3.3 makes subtlety relevant. I have very little motivation to duel these days when every class has one spec that eats us for free. Will there ever be a day when a rogue can issue a 10K challenge?

125 comments
syeren Oct 4, 2009 at 4:13 am
+0 votes
Warrior + Enhancement Shaman + Paladin = Bye bye Mage, Lock, Shaman.
But this is no surprise considering it combines two of the most retarded classes in WoW right now (Warrior and Enhancement Shaman).
But this is no surprise considering it combines two of the most retarded classes in WoW right now (Warrior and Enhancement Shaman).
syeren Oct 4, 2009 at 4:32 am
+9 votes
Nah, Warriors are retarded because they have the highest sustained damage in the game, the best MS in the game, are impossible to kite for all but one class (have fun in arena if your team doesn't run a mage), and have amazing survivability if they know how to switch to D-stance.
Combine this with making them one of, if not the most simple class in the game to play at the moment (Hell, Moldran even spoke to me about this), it's pretty ******* stupid.
And no, I have no idea what the logic was behind Blizzard's decision to make Warriors the way they are.
Combine this with making them one of, if not the most simple class in the game to play at the moment (Hell, Moldran even spoke to me about this), it's pretty ******* stupid.
And no, I have no idea what the logic was behind Blizzard's decision to make Warriors the way they are.
Kaeroth Oct 4, 2009 at 1:49 pm
+2 votes
...Aimed shot is the worst MS to keep up.
It has a 8 sec cooldown, 10 sec duration, plus a travel time.
MS has a 10 sec duration, FIVE second cooldown, AND it's the Warrior's main damage attack (While aimed is not - Chimera/Explosive is)
It has a 8 sec cooldown, 10 sec duration, plus a travel time.
MS has a 10 sec duration, FIVE second cooldown, AND it's the Warrior's main damage attack (While aimed is not - Chimera/Explosive is)
Nim Oct 4, 2009 at 4:37 pm
+4 votes
Kaeroth said
...Aimed shot is the worst MS to keep up.
It has a 8 sec cooldown, 10 sec duration, plus a travel time.
MS has a 10 sec duration, FIVE second cooldown, AND it's the Warrior's main damage attack (While aimed is not - Chimera/Explosive is)
It has a 8 sec cooldown, 10 sec duration, plus a travel time.
MS has a 10 sec duration, FIVE second cooldown, AND it's the Warrior's main damage attack (While aimed is not - Chimera/Explosive is)
Nim Oct 5, 2009 at 10:53 pm
+1 votes
Kaeroth said
Because warriors have no mobility whatsoever.
Oh, wait.
Oh, wait.
nzgs Oct 4, 2009 at 7:35 pm
+2 votes
lol no. Comp has a lot to do with it. Warrior in WLD takes a lot of skill, warrior in pretty much any other comp doesn't. Destro in wiz cleave takes no skill, destro in RLS takes a lot. Rogue takes no skill in RPP but takes a lot in any other comp.
Ultimately warriors are a clunky class limited by globals and weap switches so they will never be as fluid or have as high a skillcap as rogues.
I agree about shamans though, ele and enhance are incredibly dumbed down nowadays. Just rogue and warlock takes a lot more skill than those other classes.
Ultimately warriors are a clunky class limited by globals and weap switches so they will never be as fluid or have as high a skillcap as rogues.
I agree about shamans though, ele and enhance are incredibly dumbed down nowadays. Just rogue and warlock takes a lot more skill than those other classes.
Rioter Oct 5, 2009 at 11:55 am
+1 votes
I think regarding ele and enhance it's about the comps they play in. Enhance with a BM hunter or Ele with a destrolock is just terrible for the game. I see them in some other comps and am more impressed by the play it requires from them.
Nim Oct 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm
+4 votes
Moogz said
NO LOL RETS AND DKS ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN WARS, EVERY MELEE > WAR LOL
o wait, people get it now
soz, enjoy unrelenting retardness for another season
o wait, people get it now
soz, enjoy unrelenting retardness for another season
Nim Oct 4, 2009 at 4:34 pm
+4 votes
syeren said
Nah, Warriors are retarded because they have the highest sustained damage in the game, the best MS in the game, are impossible to kite for all but one class (have fun in arena if your team doesn't run a mage), and have amazing survivability if they know how to switch to D-stance.
Combine this with making them one of, if not the most simple class in the game to play at the moment (Hell, Moldran even spoke to me about this), it's pretty ******* stupid.
And no, I have no idea what the logic was behind Blizzard's decision to make Warriors the way they are.
Combine this with making them one of, if not the most simple class in the game to play at the moment (Hell, Moldran even spoke to me about this), it's pretty ******* stupid.
And no, I have no idea what the logic was behind Blizzard's decision to make Warriors the way they are.
Also who the **** is moldran? I don't follow euro ****.
Dahis Oct 4, 2009 at 7:32 pm
+1 votes
Zero Warriors in the top 15 of Bloodlust 3v3.
The only reason Warriors are even a factor on the SK-100 is because they can only really be replaced by a Hunter in 5v5 (and there aren't many good Hunters).
The only reason Warriors are even a factor on the SK-100 is because they can only really be replaced by a Hunter in 5v5 (and there aren't many good Hunters).
Yiska Oct 4, 2009 at 9:08 pm
+1 votes
Nim said
Warriors are the only class that turn into non factors in a team when you focus them, with little tools to keep applying pressure. Did people suddenly forget how to **** up a warrior? Seven ******* seasons and it hasn't changed but apparently people have started to get selective memory loss or some dumb ****.
Also who the **** is moldran? I don't follow euro ****.
Also who the **** is moldran? I don't follow euro ****.
Nim Oct 4, 2009 at 10:22 pm
+1 votes
Yiska said
Well you should since he's been a top notch warrior since Season 1, CGS etc.
syeren Oct 5, 2009 at 3:15 am
+1 votes
> Focus the Warrior who takes small amounts of damage
> Enjoy the rest of whatever the other DPS is doing
COMPLETELY SOLVED.
> Enjoy the rest of whatever the other DPS is doing
COMPLETELY SOLVED.
Ingredientsbg9 Oct 5, 2009 at 9:51 am
+1 votes
Why are there 0 warriors in the top 15 of bloodlust 3v3, but there's tons of rogues and ret pallys? Answer: Because warriors are overpowered and are the easiest class to play in the game.
wat
wat
Nim Oct 5, 2009 at 10:57 pm
+1 votes
syeren said
> Focus the Warrior who takes small amounts of damage
> Enjoy the rest of whatever the other DPS is doing
COMPLETELY SOLVED.
> Enjoy the rest of whatever the other DPS is doing
COMPLETELY SOLVED.
syeren Oct 6, 2009 at 7:17 am
+0 votes
No offensive CC allowed from the other DPS, as one DPS isn't even going to push a Warrior to D-stance. As for the healer, unless they're a Druid, they have one CC available Every 25-30 seconds minimum.
Heals are going to keep your team alive, but seem as both your DPS are going to have to be offensive to keep a Warrior in D, their healer will most likely be spending less mana than you to keep up their Warrior.
As for the BG9 argument, didn't we already discover that that **** was over hyped for everything but CLC in 5's?
Heals are going to keep your team alive, but seem as both your DPS are going to have to be offensive to keep a Warrior in D, their healer will most likely be spending less mana than you to keep up their Warrior.
As for the BG9 argument, didn't we already discover that that **** was over hyped for everything but CLC in 5's?
Nim Oct 6, 2009 at 9:03 pm
+1 votes
syeren said
No offensive CC allowed from the other DPS, as one DPS isn't even going to push a Warrior to D-stance. As for the healer, unless they're a Druid, they have one CC available Every 25-30 seconds minimum.
Heals are going to keep your team alive, but seem as both your DPS are going to have to be offensive to keep a Warrior in D, their healer will most likely be spending less mana than you to keep up their Warrior.
As for the BG9 argument, didn't we already discover that that **** was over hyped for everything but CLC in 5's?
Heals are going to keep your team alive, but seem as both your DPS are going to have to be offensive to keep a Warrior in D, their healer will most likely be spending less mana than you to keep up their Warrior.
As for the BG9 argument, didn't we already discover that that **** was over hyped for everything but CLC in 5's?
I think you need to reevaluate the whole concept of pushing a warrior to D stance where he can apply virtually no pressure at all, oh wait a minute I already said that but I guess you weren't paying attention right? A warrior doesn't go D stance as soon as someone looks at him, he goes it whenever it is necessary because he knows he will be a detriment to his team in doing so, therefore most warriors choose to do so at sub 50% health and at that point I can guarantee you that no healer will be "spending less mana to keep their warrior up" - and that is in an average arena match, not in a "professional" one where clearly warriors have been phased out (OH YEA BG9 WINNERS OF BLIZZCON AND EUROSTOMPERS).
I wasn't aware that priest fear, HoJ, hex, cyclone are roots are CCs from your "other" dps (wat?). One more thing: a cc every so and so seconds is enough for your team to take the mana war and the rhythm of the match for lack of a better word which is slipping my mind right now.
Seriously just stop now before you continue making yourself look like a retard.
syeren Oct 7, 2009 at 3:26 am
+1 votes
Reading comprehension helps. I specifically said 'no offensive CC from the other DPS', this would mean things like Polymorph and Fear, the only DPS that could be thrown out without a serious drop in DPS is Blind, but even this would be a drop in DPS due to the energy cost. You'll also find you listed all the healer CC's and said they're from the 'other DPS' of your team, despite the fact I said a healer CC is perfectly viable, although incredibly limited if you're not a Druid.
As for the lack of Warriors on BG9, not my fault there isn't a single noteworthy Warrior, or at least two competent healers who can carry him. The last time I checked, Blizzcon was won by a team who wasn't actually 'from' BG9 at the time, they were from some random BG (Like pretty much every American team who has won a tourney, with the exception of Pandemic I suppose).
As for my 'lack of arena experience', yeaaaaah. Not really worth getting into that if you know who I actually am.
As for the lack of Warriors on BG9, not my fault there isn't a single noteworthy Warrior, or at least two competent healers who can carry him. The last time I checked, Blizzcon was won by a team who wasn't actually 'from' BG9 at the time, they were from some random BG (Like pretty much every American team who has won a tourney, with the exception of Pandemic I suppose).
As for my 'lack of arena experience', yeaaaaah. Not really worth getting into that if you know who I actually am.
Nim Oct 8, 2009 at 4:43 pm
+1 votes
syeren said
Reading comprehension helps. I specifically said 'no offensive CC from the other DPS', this would mean things like Polymorph and Fear, the only DPS that could be thrown out without a serious drop in DPS is Blind, but even this would be a drop in DPS due to the energy cost. You'll also find you listed all the healer CC's and said they're from the 'other DPS' of your team, despite the fact I said a healer CC is perfectly viable, although incredibly limited if you're not a Druid.
As for the lack of Warriors on BG9, not my fault there isn't a single noteworthy Warrior, or at least two competent healers who can carry him. The last time I checked, Blizzcon was won by a team who wasn't actually 'from' BG9 at the time, they were from some random BG (Like pretty much every American team who has won a tourney, with the exception of Pandemic I suppose).
As for my 'lack of arena experience', yeaaaaah. Not really worth getting into that if you know who I actually am.
As for the lack of Warriors on BG9, not my fault there isn't a single noteworthy Warrior, or at least two competent healers who can carry him. The last time I checked, Blizzcon was won by a team who wasn't actually 'from' BG9 at the time, they were from some random BG (Like pretty much every American team who has won a tourney, with the exception of Pandemic I suppose).
As for my 'lack of arena experience', yeaaaaah. Not really worth getting into that if you know who I actually am.
As for the BG9 comment, I guarantee you they are in BG9 at the moment, so your point is invalid seeing as Dahis was commenting on representation on the ACTUAL bg9 and not something that was happening during Blizzcon.
Just admit you are biased and we'll run with it, it is clear you see a warrior in a match and block yourself out of good decision-making and that is a huge flaw.
twiceasnice Oct 4, 2009 at 4:31 am
+0 votes
agreed, it is generally the only article these days with both quantity and quality
Riddler Oct 4, 2009 at 3:57 pm
+2 votes
I beg to differ. I think Azael's blogs are always very good. I really haven't read a bad one from him yet.
Hogan Oct 4, 2009 at 5:05 pm
+0 votes
Azeals blogs are getting a lil bit repetitive as they're always about e-sport. Dude needs to change it up a little bit and improve his english. Perhaps bodi can proof read it for him.
bust Oct 4, 2009 at 11:12 am
+2 votes
DeadLy said
Death Knights deserve no sympathy. Go cry in a corner.
affix Oct 4, 2009 at 5:31 pm
+6 votes
Mezurashii said
CoI nerf was an overkill. They should be ******* nerfing frost mage multiple novas, not the anti kiting measures of an underpowered melee class.
....oh wait
Klynx Oct 4, 2009 at 9:12 pm
-2 votes
affix said
yeah they should totally nerf frost mages in the same way by putting novas on DR
....oh wait
....oh wait
Mages are pretty fine, I think they're only a tad high on dmg, like 3% ish
suchthedrama Oct 4, 2009 at 6:53 pm
+1 votes
Mezurashii said
CoI nerf was an overkill. They should be ******* nerfing frost mage multiple novas, not the anti kiting measures of an underpowered melee class.
affix Oct 5, 2009 at 1:21 am
+4 votes
suchthedrama said
by overkill you mean remove chains and balance them with something not retarded
it is amazing how quickly people forget that casters are supposed to be able to kite and cast sometimes
Cooldown Oct 4, 2009 at 4:29 am
+1 votes
its bg9s top team as of tonight, rgo streamed every game as they passed that beastcleave
SKNeilyo Oct 4, 2009 at 2:31 pm
+1 votes
prattel said
he has more than 100 more and close to 800 resil.
prattel Oct 4, 2009 at 3:58 pm
+1 votes
nothing at all. but as that mages gear is top notch windex has to be lacking somewhere else. maybe close to 0 resil.
prattel Oct 5, 2009 at 3:09 am
+1 votes
Zezo said
What mage are you even talking about?
Zezo Oct 5, 2009 at 7:40 am
+1 votes
Yeah, and I don't see where he mentiones a specific mage other than Flyn, and he doesn't refer to Flyn's stats at any point.
prattel Oct 5, 2009 at 5:59 pm
+1 votes
what you are saying would imply that ming has any kind of knowledge about any other classes.
he doesn't, so he just uses flynns stats as a reference. look up flynn - 2729 spell power.
he doesn't, so he just uses flynns stats as a reference. look up flynn - 2729 spell power.
Windex Oct 5, 2009 at 1:34 am
+1 votes
I have 5 and a half % hit, 500 haste, 15% crit, and 2800 unbuffed spell power(I play warlock, so I cheated and included Fel armor).
Oh and I have 800 resil. And I don't wear stuff from ToC.
Oh and I have 800 resil. And I don't wear stuff from ToC.
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