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by Jasi, Level 63
Last updated at June 8, 2008, 11:52 pm
When Cheat Death was first released, there were quite a bit of complaints due to the fact that it allowed Rogues to become virtually untrainable. With it's original bugged design of allowing almost 100% immunity to damage, it was completely broken in combination with the already strong arsenal of escape abilities and tools Rogue's had available for use when they were under any extreme amount of pressure. Even with the nerf/bug fix that soon followed and brought the damage reduction down to 90%, there have still been pages and pages of complaints.

The bigger problem came into play when Rogues began to realize that because of this, they could potentially run anywhere from 2/3 to 1/2 the amount of resilience they were previously wearing before the ability was implemented. In addition, those that had access to PVE gear quickly increased the distance and broke away from those that did not have access to the same shiny purples and legendaries. Double Warglaive Rogues running 250-300 resilience had a significant advantage against Rogues without.

Eventually, even team makeups began to revolve around the current untrainable state that the Rogue class is in. Euro comp is a perfect example of the extremely large efficiency a Rogue can be with access to PVE gear in combination with Cheat death.

A lot of players have been complaining about it for some time, and it was a huge source of QQ for a substantial amount of the players that competed in the "BG9 Tournament" whom also previously played in top 10 BG9 5v5 competition. Many of those players have since quit or abandoned competitive WoW, and a lot of newer players or those who managed to stick it out, still find it to be a problem. Recently I had a small idea in terms of what could be done to bring the strength of Cheat Death and Rogues in general to a more respectable and consistent level with other classes. I know the exact response I'll get from this majority Rogue based community, but don't kid yourself.

I remember the day when Shadow Priests got royally owned when Blizzard responded to the mass amounts of QQ dissertations on the general forums related to the un-checked damage level of Warlock dots. It was a huge kick in the face when we were affected because of another class, but at this point, I do think it was necessary - there just needed to be some sort of compensation or at least acknowledgement that both classes would need to be balanced even though it was only aimed at Warlocks.

Step forward a little bit into the future, and we find resilience has now been thrown even further into the balance world when it starts affecting the effectiveness of Mana draining abilities - another much needed fix and adjustment to something that was plain and simple, getting way out of hand.

So now, has Cheat Death reached that same level? Some would argue yes, others would say no. I personally don't mind the ability either way - yes, it can really frustrate and upset me, but I've learned to deal with it and really not care anymore. However, for those who really would want to see it fixed, I propose this idea. Before I go into it, note that to my knowledge, I've never seen someone else suggest this idea before, but I could be completely wrong. I'm not in a position where I want credit for it, rather I think it could be potentially good even if I wasn't the first person to think of it.

Why not have Cheat Death follow suit with other abilities that slowly became broken or allowed a class to be broken, and have it's effectiveness be affected by resilience as well? Not following? Look at it this way.

Say for every 4 resilence, Cheat Death reduces incoming damage by 1%, to it's current maximum of 90%. This means that those who wear 360 or more resilience, will maintain their current 90% immunity level upon Cheat Death proccing, but those who wear as little as 250, would see their reduction impacted in an attempt to balance out their more risky offensive gearing setup with only a 60% overall damage reduction. This level could not go below say, 40-50% so as to not make the ability entirely useless.

Now of course, there could be many variances in the overall numbers. You could even go as far as only reaching a maximum reduction from Cheat Death if and only if you were at the resilience cap, or you could go the opposite way and find a less impacting alternative and only allow at the least, a 70% reduction - as this would still allow Rogues to maintain some strength and utility from access to PVE gear, but could potentially make them less "broken".

Preliminary level 80 AoC Assassin Build

Lotus/Corruption Hybrid

This build basically includes all of the possible utility abilities an Assassin could want, and although Light Footed is currently bugged, I would definitely include it once it's fixed. This will basically give you 10% more evasion, 10% more melee invulnerability, activatable evasion from Catlike Reflexes, immunity to fear/stun from Avatar, your own CC and ability to close distances etc. I'll go much more in-depth on Tuesday.
     
162 comments
Mortale
Mortale Jun 8, 2008 at 11:53 pm
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+2 votes
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Cooldown
Cooldown Jun 8, 2008 at 11:54 pm
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no I like reading all the qq threads
Maldazzar
Maldazzar Jun 8, 2008 at 11:56 pm
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+16 votes
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another solution for cheat death:
remove it from the game
Adiara
Adiara Jun 8, 2008 at 11:57 pm
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brilliant, i wholeheartedly approve of this
themrchook
themrchook Jun 9, 2008 at 12:03 am
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Yeah that one didn't take too much thought. Obvious problem = Obvious solution.
Triadar
Triadar Jun 9, 2008 at 12:12 am
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schade
schade Jun 9, 2008 at 10:21 am
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******* noobsuggestion l2play your class or quit the game
Melg
Melg Jun 10, 2008 at 7:29 pm
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Maldazzar is right. But Jasi's idea is good too, every class and spec should need to use PvP gear in PvP.
Afgar
Afgar Jun 8, 2008 at 11:57 pm
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Cheat Death should be 1 talent point and just absorb the hit that would kill you.
Hafoc
Hafoc Jun 9, 2008 at 12:02 am
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JLMonkey
JLMonkey Jun 9, 2008 at 12:06 am
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Pre-nerf, Cheat Death was very overpowered, but I don't believe there is anything terribly wrong with it at this point. Sure, some classes still QQ about it, but considering how deep it is in the Subtlety tree, I think it should be strong to a point (and I think it is at where it should be).

You idea is intriguing, but I think the real issue is the impact PvE gear plays in PvP. So instead of targeting one aspect, why not just fix the problem at it's root? The fact that PvE gear can give people an edge.

Honestly though, so long as the PvE gear doesn't give them THAT much of an advantage, I don't see the problem with it.
rakka
rakka Jun 9, 2008 at 12:11 am
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"Honestly though, so long as the PvE gear doesn't give them THAT much of an advantage, I don't see the problem with it."

It's a HUGE advantage.
Zilea
Zilea Jun 9, 2008 at 12:17 am
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you realize every rogue that has PvE gear will wear like 200-250 resilience in arena at all times right? Every rogue goes deep into subtlety nowadays, so every rogue that has the PvE gear will wear it.

Cheat death needs to be changed.
Trupster
Trupster Jun 9, 2008 at 9:13 pm
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Or just not allow pve gear in arenas? Its a gear issue it seems looking at everyone always whining, not a talent/class issue.
Arcoth
Arcoth Jun 9, 2008 at 12:12 am
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Even if cheat death wasnt in the game it wouldnt stop rogues from using pve gear in certain comps. The reason I use it is because I know even if I get trained, double evasion vanish and ShSing around will prevent enough damage.

Also pretty much every rogue runs with either a mage or a lock when they are wearing pve gear, and if the opposing team attacks the rogue they will just get cc'd.

a year ago rogues were full combat stacking stam, while Spriests ran around dotting up a target and /loling while they slowly die. The way WoW scales favours classes like clothies early until damage gets too high. It happened in vanilla wow when rogues and warriors were 2 hitting most people and it's happening again.

PS: please just quit WoW already all your posts are a bunch of Biased emo ranting.
schade
schade Jun 9, 2008 at 10:22 am
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exactly..... in your phace JASI.
Jasi
Jasi Jun 9, 2008 at 12:33 pm
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You only prove how CD is broken or not necessary due to the fact that Rogues already have enough escape tools without it. Sure, they can wear more PVE gear because of other variables, but CD allows them to wear evern more. What other class do you know that can put out such an un-peelable offensive pressure while wearing 200-250 resilience?

P.S I also said I personally don't mind all that much about the current state of Rogue. This is just one way to solve the issue that many other people do have a problem with.
Trupster
Trupster Jun 9, 2008 at 9:18 pm
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As I said in an earlier post, its a gear issue, not a class/talent issue. Stop looking at the wrong side of the problem at hand.

Blizzard has always failed with having pve and pvp in this game because they always negatively influence each other. They should really just drop the pvp aspect if you ask me, its always been a pve focused game.
Melg
Melg Jun 10, 2008 at 7:30 pm
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The trio of OP'ness of rogues is CD, Prep and Elusiveness.
JLMonkey
JLMonkey Jun 9, 2008 at 12:12 am
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Continuing last thought (stupid edit timer).

If it weren't for the fact that Warglaives are all too common (Nihilum not included, bless their unlucky *****), I wouldn't see the big deal with some people being able to get a competitive edge for a weapon that should take a lot of dedication. But since they are so frequent, I can see the problem there.
Doogless
Doogless Jun 9, 2008 at 1:32 am
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The Warglaives aren't the only problem. 4pc T6?

Honestly though, so long as the PvE gear doesn't give them THAT much of an advantage, I don't see the problem with it.

And that's the problem - it does give a huge advantage. An extra 6% damage on Hemo - in addition to the damage increase from the actual stats - means that any Rogue that has that gear is noticeably superior to any Rogue without it.
Trupster
Trupster Jun 9, 2008 at 9:20 pm
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Warglaives are not common, 29 kills 1 OH drop here.

("qq" comment inc below)
kavekk
kavekk Jun 9, 2008 at 12:14 am
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I remember the day when Shadow Priests got royally owned when Blizzard
responded to the mass amounts of QQ dissertations on the general forums
related to the un-checked damage level of Warlock dots.

I thought hybrid classes being given access to good damage in PvP made them OP? If it made feral druids overpowered then it surely made spriests OP, seeing as they have had much better representation.
Lolwalrus
Lolwalrus Jun 9, 2008 at 12:15 am
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Xinner
Xinner Jun 9, 2008 at 1:28 am
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Exactly... Not everyone has access to 400 Resilience gear. So you basically want to **** with the majority of the player base to make the small minority that actually do still do arena less of a threat. Bravo. Nice thinking outside of the box there.

Yes, I have a rogue and no, I don't do arenas on him anymore. Yes, I am shs specced and have been since TBC release because I enjoy it. Cheat Death has saved my life in PvE situations a lot. I don't even play on my rogue anymore since I only raid on my hunter, but still, there are others out there except the small elitist 2200+ club.
Yiska
Yiska Jun 9, 2008 at 8:30 am
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Are you retarded? PvP gear and 400 res. is incredibly easy to get.
troilism
troilism Jun 9, 2008 at 3:10 pm
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are YOU retarded? Casual is season 1 epics and weps, etc, etc.

My friends are casual, my friends don't even have season 1 gear complete.

Casuals from the PoV of someone who HAS gear is ALWAYS retarded. The only person who I have seen actually SEE it from the PoV of a casual is Ming, which is sad as hell.
Yiska
Yiska Jun 9, 2008 at 10:45 pm
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There is a huge difference between downscasuals like your friends and normal people you know? 10hours a week for 3 month being 70 = easily 400 res. Not saying it's anywhere near s3 or sumthing. Just browse some pvpgear kid.

Btw 2warlord + s1 = 400 res ***.
troilism
troilism Jun 10, 2008 at 11:30 am
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Once again ****tards can't see it from the PoV of CASUALS. How much honor grinding are you doing? How much can you stand? What BG are you doing?

Casual doesn't just MEAN amount of time played you idiot. Casual means you have no ******* idea what you're doing when you hit 70 and you're trying to figure **** out.

You:
OMAN I HIT 70 TIME TO HARDCORE AV 2 HOURS A DAY TO HIT 400 RES AND GET READY FOR ARENA!

Casual:
OMAN I HIT 70 THIS IS SWEET, WHAT DO I DO NOW?!?!? OYA I GOTTA GET KEYS AND **** FOR KARA, MAYBE DO SOME BGS, GET MONEY FOR MY FLYER, UM WHAT ELSE??

Casuals don't have a ******* set path where they know what they're doing. ***ots like you think everyone knows exactly what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. No, people actually, like, don't have your incredible knowledge of the game.
Yiska
Yiska Jun 10, 2008 at 12:03 pm
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Plz overthink the meaning of casual. Ming is a casual. Even in your definition it doesnt make sense at all. If these people want to stand a chance in PvP they have to have clue of what they're doing and ask friends/forums for help or they just want to do it for fun and don't care at all about success. Therefore they couldn't care less if they get stomped cause only the killing blow attack got resisted by cheat death or they absorb for 70%-90% cheat death for another 3 seconds, they wouldn't even recognize if they are that bad.

To your definition of casual: Np downskid. You're wrong. Terrible
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