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by Serennia, Level 58
Last updated at June 1, 2009, 6:37 am
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Anyone playing arena right now (hell, even in PvE) has probably come to the realization that Restoration Druids are so unbelievably overpowered that their status of dominance as a healer in almost any comp or bracket dwarfs any other to date, even overshadowing the holy paladins of season five. As if the buffs to tree form in patch 3.1 wern't enough, as well as the new Glyph of Barkskin, Druids also more recently received a massive overall buff to Innervate, causing it to restore 450% of the druid's base mana to the target. At level 80, a druid's base mana pool is 3496, so 450% of that means that the new innervate restores 15,732 mana (18,877 mana glyphed). When coupled with the new Improved Barkskin talent, this is a virtually guaranteed full mana bar for any druid in arena right now at current gear levels with plenty of mana to spare.
Sure, druids needed some love after being shafted by plague strike all season five but was this really necessary? Many people have been complaining about how overpowered this all is, particularly how unkillable druids are when sitting in tree form and spamming HoT's, so how does Blizzard react? They buff druids.
The new patch notes currently state two new changes for Druids:
-Improved Tree of Life: The armor bonus to Tree of Life Form from this talent has been reduced to 67/133/200% bonus armor.
At first glance, most people will be thinking "thank God" after reading that because of how stupidly overpowered tree form is right now. But then you have the second patch note:
-Improved Barkskin: This talent now also grants 80/160% additional armor while in Travel Form or not shapeshifted.
The first time I read this, I thought it was another much needed nerf to the class, basically changing barkskin to no longer have dispel resistance and instead only provide some additional armor in travel and caster form, which is perfectly fine considering the other nerf to tree form tanking. But when asked about this change on the healing forums, Ghostcrawler clarified the notes, stating:
The caster and travel form armor benefits occur if you have the talent even if Barkskin is not up.
While we were succesful getting Resto druids into tree form in Arena, we were a little too succesful. We're not sure it's fun for either the druid or the people trying to kill the druid to be locked in tree form all the time. This change will hopefully make the fights a little more dynamic.
Oookay, so after taking one step forward, Blizzard officially takes three more steps back in the wrong direction. Do they really want Druids to go back to the days of being not only the best arena healers in terms of survivability, raw healing throughput, healing mana efficiency, AND now crowd control once again? Have they really forgotten about the days of root -> root -> root -> cyclone -> cyclone -> cyclone -> bash?
This type of CC was and is still possible in Wrath of the Lich King, with the only difference being that it is far more risky for the druid to leave protective shapeshift forms (bear and tree) in order to perform this CC, which is a perfectly reasonable trade-off. The CC is very powerful and among the best in the game, especially if there is no magic dispel on the other team for entangling roots. With this new patch change, Blizzard is effectively removing the risk of druids shifting caster form to CC opponents now. Sounds great, doesn't it?
I don't know about everyone else's experiences, but I actually feel Druids are even more powerful currently than ever before. In fact, with me and Serration on our 3v3 team playing against anything with a resto druid on it, it is literally impossible for us to kill most resto druids unless they have absolutely no HoT's on themselves. "Hey, the druid is standing right next to us, let's swap to him. JK HE HAS A LIFEBLOOM ON." That's basically what usually happens and we always have to end up targetting everyone BUT the druid which is rather stupid considering the amount of damage and control our team can put out in the opener, but nvm, he's barkskinned.
Druids need to be nerfed or arena is going to reach yet another all-time low possibly. I'm not crying about them because I've lost to them or anything, but rather because of how stupidly undeniable their prowess is right now and how they're only going to become better unless something is done. The dispel resistance of Improved Barkskin needs to go (guaranteed 100% mana innervates from being OOM isn't skill), Banish needs to be 10 second duration in PvP again to punish druids that healbot from tree form, lifebloom shouldn't heal for partial dispels (ie purging a triple lifebloom stack down to 1x), and the new Imp Barkskin buff should also be removed. Then we might see some semblance of a balanced healer class.
PvE DPS Class Comparisons
With the restructuring and redesign of World of Ming, there have been many requests to have PvE content on a regular basis here. While I'm personally skeptical of the reader audience for PvE writing, being that I currently raid with one of the top raiding guilds in the US, I figured I would try the waters at least and see where it goes. That said, in this article, I wanted to begin with this topic by discussing PvE DPS class comparisons, particularly in Ulduar.
I'll preface that I openly admit that I don't know all the ins and outs of every spec for every class in regards to PvE performance, but I know I have a good grasp of it all and also know what our DPS classes currently put out in raids and who has really dominated the damage meters for each encounter.
Before getting into it, however, keep in mind that damage meters are very difficult to accurately gauge the strength (or lackthereof) of a DPS class unless it is a mostly unbias fight. Almost no fight in Naxxramas can be an accurate representation due to the speed and ease of the encounters and how much they can be stacked. Ulduar is also very encounter-specific when it comes to damage meters. So when comparing how well your DPS classes do, you really need to keep in mind that the mechanics of each fight can really impact the numbers they produce. Going through every encounter, here are my thoughts on them in regards to DPS numbers:
-Flame Leviathan: Obviously irrelevant with vehicles used
-Razorscale: Irrelevant due to speed of encounter and HP on the adds
-Ignis the Furnace Master: RNG based depending on how many times you get slag potted
-XT 002 Deconstructor (Hardmode): RNG based depending on how many debuffs (gravity bombs and light sparks) you get
-Assembly of Iron (Hardmode Steelbreaker last): Very good DPS comparison. 10 mill hp burn with no variables.
-Kologarn: RNG based fight with grips and favoring melee due to beams
-Auriaya: Slightly RNG based with the feral defender and its pounce/rush, but overall decent for gauging numbers.
-Hodir (Hardmode): More RNG than TBC warrior mace stun
-Thorim (Hardmode): RNG based depending on frost novas, blizzard, and lightning charges
-Freya (Hardmode): Slightly RNG based with roots, nature's fury, and trees that need to be ranged down, etc, but overall still a good DPS comparison
-Mimiron (Hardmode): Despite how melee unfriendly this fight is in general, this is a heavily melee favored fight for Hardmode due to the mechanics with the fire and melee being relatively immune to it.
-General Vezax (Hardmode): Bias fight due to obvious shadow crash effect, the aura, and the fact that Elemental Shamans completely dominate this fight with Clearcasting
-Yogg-Saron (Hardmode): Bias fight due to both areas being different, favoring DoT classes, etc.
So with all of that in mind, where does that usually rank DPS classes in order from best to worst in a relatively balanced encounter (without a ton of adds to pad numbers on for unholy dk's and such)? Well, every guild has their pros and their scrubs, but from what I've seen and read, it goes something like this for us:
1. Feral Druids
2. Combat Rogues
3. Mutilate Rogues
4. Mages
5. Warlocks
6. Blood/Unholy Death Knights
7. Shadow Priests
8. Retribution Paladins
9. Elemental/Enhance Shamans
10. Marksmanship/Survival Hunters
11. Balance Druids
12. Arms Warriors
13. Anything not listed (fury warriors, frost DK's, tanks, etc)
Before people get all into telling me how wrong this list is and all, again, keep in mind that every guild has their stronger classes or DPS classes that they have better raid comps for, but this is generally what I've noticed from encounters that don't overly benefit any spec over another.
So why is this list this way? There's obviously a ton of factors as to why each class is in its respective ranking, but to be very brief, I'll try to give a small explanation on each of them.
1. Feral Druids - Extremely retarded damage ever since the buffs to armor penetration and the ability for bleeds to crit.
2. Combat Rogues - Combat tree buffs, armor penetration boosts, Killing Spree buff, and 4pc rupture crit bonus all made them much stronger.
3. Mutilate Rogues - See above.
4. Mages - Mages do a massive amount of damage on fights where they can be dedicated to one target to roll ignites and dump hot streak procs such as XT and Hodir, or fights with lots of adds like Freya, but often fall behind in fights that require movement such as Thorim.
5. Warlocks - Same as above if playing destruction. Affliction typically falls too far behind to be considered except in rare circumstances for encounters that require a lot of movement.
6. Death Knights - DK's excel and dominate fights that have lots of adds due to blood boil and unholy blight, but are far more "in-line" when it comes to any single target boss fight.
7. Shadow Priests - I'm not really sure why, but Shadow Priests seem to start every new WoW expansion dominating the damage meters at the start and then slowly sliding off down toward the bottom due to inferior scaling compared to other classes. Although this has been slightly remedied with the addition of Mind Sear, it still seems to be true for most single target fights.
8. Retribution Paladins - Despite the fact that Ret Paladins can completely rape someone in a few globals in arena, they arn't THAT ridiculous for PvE dps. Some fights favor them much more where they can use consecrate on a ton of adds, but typically they fall down toward the bottom on a single target fight.
9. Elemental/Enhance Shamans - This is one of the classes and specs that I'm least familiar with the workings of, so all I know is that basically their damage is not very impressive despite the fact that they can really never run out of mana. Maybe someone can clue me in on this.
10. Hunters - Although most raiding hunters since early WotLK (after BM nerfs) have been Survival for Replenishment, many hunters are now running with the 7/57/7 Marksmanship spec and putting out some impressive numbers. This ranking could be completely off or maybe just because our hunters blow, but it seems despite the Marks buffs in 3.1, the class still seems to trail behind other pure DPS classes, partly because pets arn't viable on every fight.
11. Balance Druids - Balance druids don't really offer a raid much that other classes can't do better such as ele shamans for their crit bonus, ret paladins for their haste bonus, and unholy dk's for their damage bonus, and they bring less than stellar damage right now due to scaling issues as well as a buggy 4pc t8 bonus (changed next patch, however).
12. Arms Warriors - And usually dead last come the Arms warriors who, despite having close to 100% armor ignore now with Battle Stance, Mace Specialization, and proper gearing/gemming, cannot win a DPS meter to save their life unless the fight heavily favors them somehow although I don't really know any that do.
So what's the point of this all? Well, first off, aside from the long-standing issue that melee classes scale better than casters typically, I really feel that the armor penetration buff was a bit overboard. Every melee class almost aside from certain exceptions like mutilate rogues and unholy dk's will be gearing for 100% armor penetration which is already attainable with a simple trinket proc from Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone. Once attained, these melee classes will just continually pile on other stats, only further increasing the margin of lead that they have right now over casters. Armor penetration seems far too easy to max out given current itemization values and makes gemming and gearing pretty linear, rather than giving melee classes an option; right now, it's either stack ArP or gimp yourself, period.
And on one final note on this matter, I think warriors could stand to use a lot of buffs in PvE. PvP aside, they are one of the most boring, weak, and one-dimensional classes in raiding environments. Not only that, but they do completely inferior damage even given optimal gearing right now with the armor penetration and battle stance buffs. Protection warriors could use a lot of love with block (prot paladins also), Arms warriors could really use another rage dump (read: instant), and fury warriors need to be less punished for spec'ing TG so the entire tree isn't ruled out of a class' spec options.
That pretty much wraps it up. Like I originally mentioned, I have no idea how receptive the community is to PvE articles, and I actually have something even better to write about next time I do this, but feel free to +1 this article if you appreciated the PvE content to give some better indication of desirability. Thanks.

245 comments
dub Jun 1, 2009 at 6:47 am
+0 votes
Maybe our melees are doing something wrong, but Destruction Warlocks and 4pc T8,5 Mages are giving them good competition. Our Warriors are dishing out pretty decent DPS.
Serennia Jun 1, 2009 at 6:49 am
+7 votes
They probably haven't caught on to full-on armor penetration stacking. A good example is Cryect (feral druid), easily our top DPS on almost any given fight:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormreaver&n=Cryect
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormreaver&n=Cryect
dub Jun 1, 2009 at 7:07 am
+1 votes
No, they stack armor penetration aswell. Melees are usually leading in the DPS charts, but only by a slight margin.
frisbee Jun 1, 2009 at 6:59 am
+17 votes
Celeras said
Stopped reading after the first sentence. Both Paladins and Priests are ahead of druids in representation in every way imaginable. SK-100, priests dwarf everything. Realmhistory, druids are behind both in every bracket and behind shamans in 5s.
You can whine about something being overpowered all you want, which tree armor certainly is. But when you throw out the word Dominance, try understanding what it ******* means, fishface.
You can whine about something being overpowered all you want, which tree armor certainly is. But when you throw out the word Dominance, try understanding what it ******* means, fishface.
you know what just **** off you idiot.
frisbee Jun 1, 2009 at 7:49 am
+0 votes
Celeras said
http://www.realmhistory.net/arena-statistics/class-breakdown.html
Means nothing as well I suppose?
Numbers are facts. Cry more.
Means nothing as well I suppose?
Numbers are facts. Cry more.
Legionnaire Jun 1, 2009 at 7:06 am
+3 votes
SK-100 isn't some sort of balance bible, druids are (generally) much more frustrating to play against at higher levels than say, priests.
Frankly, you just sound bitter, and pretty obviously play druid. Maybe you shouldn't have stopped after the first sentence and maybe glimmered a bit of actual knowledge before making an inane comment.
Also calling Serennia a fishface, you are so classy and original.
Frankly, you just sound bitter, and pretty obviously play druid. Maybe you shouldn't have stopped after the first sentence and maybe glimmered a bit of actual knowledge before making an inane comment.
Also calling Serennia a fishface, you are so classy and original.
Profila Jun 1, 2009 at 8:18 am
+1 votes
did it ever occur to you that some priest rogue teams farmed dk/paladin gladiator baddies during the first week until the nerfs came. And then all paladins went back to their old TBC druids, geared them and now the priests cant queue anymore and have to sit on their ratings.. afraid to be facerolled yet another season
daays Jun 1, 2009 at 10:56 am
-3 votes
Yea brah
The #1 teams, which happen to be priest/rogue, aren't queuing up cause priest/rogue is bad.
Not because they have a 80+ point lead.
The #1 teams, which happen to be priest/rogue, aren't queuing up cause priest/rogue is bad.
Not because they have a 80+ point lead.
Fuuga Jun 1, 2009 at 12:05 pm
-1 votes
Man, while druids definately have some op things about, I can't help laughing at this complex that priests seem to have whenever they think they aren't the best healer for something.
Arterian Jun 1, 2009 at 1:00 pm
+5 votes
How are we supposed to retain that lead when Druid/X makes up almost 50% of all teams in arena and is a complete counter?
Buffjob Jun 1, 2009 at 1:12 pm
+3 votes
Any non retarded Druid (This obviously does not include you, Celeras) dominates every other healer in 2v2, and soon with the next patch 3v3 and 5v5.
Shizbam Jun 1, 2009 at 4:05 pm
+2 votes
Dear god no class loves to fight the idea they are OP like a resto druid. Let me guess yall where fine in s3 and s4 too correct?
Penello Jun 2, 2009 at 12:27 am
+1 votes
Celeras said
Stopped reading after the first sentence. Both Paladins and Priests are ahead of druids in representation in every way imaginable. SK-100, priests dwarf everything. Realmhistory, druids are behind both in every bracket and behind shamans in 5s.
You can whine about something being overpowered all you want, which tree armor certainly is. But when you throw out the word Dominance, try understanding what it ******* means, fishface.
You can whine about something being overpowered all you want, which tree armor certainly is. But when you throw out the word Dominance, try understanding what it ******* means, fishface.
windrunner Jun 1, 2009 at 6:49 am
+8 votes
i honestly have no idea how gc manages to rationalize this **** to himself
syeren Jun 1, 2009 at 7:31 am
+10 votes
Cleaning up his HOTs as a Shaman or Priest....
Bye bye 5k mana and 10-20 seconds of time!
Bye bye 5k mana and 10-20 seconds of time!
frisbee Jun 1, 2009 at 7:38 am
+2 votes
syeren said
Cleaning up his HOTs as a Shaman or Priest....
Bye bye 5k mana and 10-20 seconds of time!
Bye bye 5k mana and 10-20 seconds of time!
Sodah Jun 1, 2009 at 7:49 am
-1 votes
LOL, i thought the fact that I had rerolled priest would give me an impartial perspective on druids. I guess I still feel inclined to protect them!
And besides, keeping a druid clean isnt hard considering thorns and mark come right off. It's 400 mana to dispel, and 3-4 dispels will clean a druid's hots with mark already gone. That's about 6 seconds and about 1500 mana. Cycloning blooms off is really good, too.
And besides, keeping a druid clean isnt hard considering thorns and mark come right off. It's 400 mana to dispel, and 3-4 dispels will clean a druid's hots with mark already gone. That's about 6 seconds and about 1500 mana. Cycloning blooms off is really good, too.
Serennia Jun 1, 2009 at 7:56 am
+12 votes
I think you forgot about dispel resistance and natural perfection stacking non-stop.
Sodah Jun 1, 2009 at 8:08 am
+11 votes
It is retarded to spam dispel a druid while hes being focused. Clean him during fears, blinds, or BEFORE SWAPS.
Also, I think druids ARE RETARDED (specifically, the plastyle, spam hots, any downie can do it). However, you're going to see druids exposing themselves to damage with this patch now that tree form has become more and more useless. And druids are NOT dominating, they're just the most annoying mother ******* to see in arenas.
In fact, my blog from a month ago is basically the same QQ as serennia's.
http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/i-play-a-druid-lol/Why-Druids-are-retarded-and-why-you-should-rereroll-one
Also, I think druids ARE RETARDED (specifically, the plastyle, spam hots, any downie can do it). However, you're going to see druids exposing themselves to damage with this patch now that tree form has become more and more useless. And druids are NOT dominating, they're just the most annoying mother ******* to see in arenas.
In fact, my blog from a month ago is basically the same QQ as serennia's.
http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/i-play-a-druid-lol/Why-Druids-are-retarded-and-why-you-should-rereroll-one
dub Jun 1, 2009 at 9:18 am
+0 votes
coolbean said
sodah is the peggle master!
Neglol Jun 1, 2009 at 10:06 am
-1 votes
Sodah said
It is retarded to spam dispel a druid while hes being focused. Clean him during fears, blinds, or BEFORE SWAPS.
Also, I think druids ARE RETARDED (specifically, the plastyle, spam hots, any downie can do it). However, you're going to see druids exposing themselves to damage with this patch now that tree form has become more and more useless. And druids are NOT dominating, they're just the most annoying mother ******* to see in arenas.
In fact, my blog from a month ago is basically the same QQ as serennia's.
http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/i-play-a-druid-lol/Why-Druids-are-retarded-and-why-you-should-rereroll-one
Also, I think druids ARE RETARDED (specifically, the plastyle, spam hots, any downie can do it). However, you're going to see druids exposing themselves to damage with this patch now that tree form has become more and more useless. And druids are NOT dominating, they're just the most annoying mother ******* to see in arenas.
In fact, my blog from a month ago is basically the same QQ as serennia's.
http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/i-play-a-druid-lol/Why-Druids-are-retarded-and-why-you-should-rereroll-one
Because a good druid gonna get himself feared? Or won't trinket a blind if he's in a bad pos? If you manage to kill a druid like this, he sucked, thats all. A good druid rolling prehots on his team and good positionning can't be swapped without hot's on, you'll have to deal with those 3 blooms and barskin if he isn't a down.
Fuuga Jun 1, 2009 at 12:09 pm
+1 votes
Just offhand, anyone know how much a lifebloom cast costs once you get the mana restore from it blooming or getting purged?
Smokeee Jun 1, 2009 at 2:03 pm
+1 votes
Fuuga said
Just offhand, anyone know how much a lifebloom cast costs once you get the mana restore from it blooming or getting purged?
Smokeee Jun 1, 2009 at 1:43 pm
+2 votes
Its retarded that this is your advice just to kill Druids. I mean Jesus Christ if it takes fears and a stunlock along with a dispeller spamming his mana bar, before even attempting to take him down, how is that remotely balanced to the other healers?
If "fairly balanced" means arguably the most OP'd healer in the game then sure. Druids don't bring much to the table? How about CC rotations? How about being the most mobile healer, and now more impossible to snare, cc, etc. because shifting just became better and easier with the same armor bonuses? Where was the nerf exactly?
If "fairly balanced" means arguably the most OP'd healer in the game then sure. Druids don't bring much to the table? How about CC rotations? How about being the most mobile healer, and now more impossible to snare, cc, etc. because shifting just became better and easier with the same armor bonuses? Where was the nerf exactly?
Sodah Jun 1, 2009 at 5:11 pm
+2 votes
Smokeee said
Its retarded that this is your advice just to kill Druids. I mean Jesus Christ if it takes fears and a stunlock along with a dispeller spamming his mana bar, before even attempting to take him down, how is that remotely balanced to the other healers?
If "fairly balanced" means arguably the most OP'd healer in the game then sure. Druids don't bring much to the table? How about CC rotations? How about being the most mobile healer, and now more impossible to snare, cc, etc. because shifting just became better and easier with the same armor bonuses? Where was the nerf exactly?
If "fairly balanced" means arguably the most OP'd healer in the game then sure. Druids don't bring much to the table? How about CC rotations? How about being the most mobile healer, and now more impossible to snare, cc, etc. because shifting just became better and easier with the same armor bonuses? Where was the nerf exactly?
Smokeee Jun 1, 2009 at 5:56 pm
+2 votes
LOL only if every class required the 'thought' you think it should take to down a druid. That is just ridiculous you would even think this is practical in the least in terms of being able to kill one, and not just based around whatever comp you run. So if someone doesn't have dispels, stuns, fears available in a given situation they should never be able to kill the Druid? Well there goes 90% of the PvP not based on perfect situations in this game :P
I don't know why every one of you pretends that making a dispeller required for anything and everything is skill, or some form of balance either
I don't know why every one of you pretends that making a dispeller required for anything and everything is skill, or some form of balance either
Tosan Jun 1, 2009 at 5:14 pm
+3 votes
Problem is Sodah, with the dumb dispel resist mechanic and Natural Perfection procs (like Serennia mentioned), that's ALOT of crap for a priest (which a priest is the only class that can do the strategy you described, fear->dispel, and not every team should be required to have a priest to beat a druid as well) to think about and monitor while trying to manage the rest of the fight.
In 3v3 things are pretty chaotic with the way damage is. Monitoring lifebloom stacks on the druid and always saving your fear CD (assuming you didn't have to use it to oh****! peel some DPS'ers) for such an opportunity is unrealistic. And yet again, only possible for 1 class in the game. On top of that, if you manage to pull that off once, he probably still has atleast Barkskin up to save him during that time, and just swiftmend super burst heal/battlemaster/NS heal out of that attempt, and getting another attempt might not be so easy during the 27 sec fear cooldown as the fight escelates.
Not that your "remedy" is impossible, but it's highly situational, RNG based (dispel resist), and restricted to 1 other class in the game. AKA not good enough.
I agree with caster form armor making them more than an ultra-potent tree healbot, noone enjoys that boring playstyle. Bringing CC utility is a good reason to bring a druid and a balanced decision, but their auto-hot healing should suffer slightly, maybe they should be more dependent on casted heals, I don't know, SOMETHING to make it less retarded.
Either that or make them vulnerable to more forms of CC, being immune to half or more of the available CC's in the game with super potent heals is both annoying and overpowered.
Also note: "Overpowered" doesn't mean "super dominant" or "unbeatable", it just means better than what it should be, people don't need to blow things out of proportion.
In 3v3 things are pretty chaotic with the way damage is. Monitoring lifebloom stacks on the druid and always saving your fear CD (assuming you didn't have to use it to oh****! peel some DPS'ers) for such an opportunity is unrealistic. And yet again, only possible for 1 class in the game. On top of that, if you manage to pull that off once, he probably still has atleast Barkskin up to save him during that time, and just swiftmend super burst heal/battlemaster/NS heal out of that attempt, and getting another attempt might not be so easy during the 27 sec fear cooldown as the fight escelates.
Not that your "remedy" is impossible, but it's highly situational, RNG based (dispel resist), and restricted to 1 other class in the game. AKA not good enough.
I agree with caster form armor making them more than an ultra-potent tree healbot, noone enjoys that boring playstyle. Bringing CC utility is a good reason to bring a druid and a balanced decision, but their auto-hot healing should suffer slightly, maybe they should be more dependent on casted heals, I don't know, SOMETHING to make it less retarded.
Either that or make them vulnerable to more forms of CC, being immune to half or more of the available CC's in the game with super potent heals is both annoying and overpowered.
Also note: "Overpowered" doesn't mean "super dominant" or "unbeatable", it just means better than what it should be, people don't need to blow things out of proportion.
Gupux Jun 1, 2009 at 6:59 am
+3 votes
Actually ArP gemming isn't that much of a must do for combat rogues since a BiS ArP set is only ~0.5% dps above BiS agi set, and you lose quite a bit of dodge. Not that it really matters, or anyone cares.
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