Create an Account
Forgot your Password?
World of Warcraft
WowRiot
Starcraft 2
Starfeeder
Hellforge
Hellforge
 
Machinima
Myndflame
Left 4 Dead
Left 4 Dead
RazeTheWorld
RazeTheWorld
 
Quake Live
Quake Life
1337pwn
1337pwn
Limit Break
Limit Break
 
Resident Evil
Resident Evil
Gameriot Store
Buy Games!
The Gameriot Store
 
 
 
POST STUFF
close
New Blog Post
Add a Video
Host an Image
Upload a File
by Jasi, Level 63
Last updated at January 25, 2008, 1:36 am

Like Ming, I too am concerned with the upcoming Sunwell loot and it's possible negative impact on Arena. While the loot upgrades are great from a PVE standpoint, if Blizzard continues to allow PVE gear to be used in the Arena the potential for problems and further imbalance is quite threatening.


PVE gear has already brought about some current issues due to the power of shadow resist and ability for certain classes to get away with wearing a majority of PVE healing gear relative to certain aspects of arena play. For the most part, there is generally ways one can overcome the situations when a class has advantages due to said gear, but the problem is still threatening-- especially in the lower brackets. When it goes as far as impacting 5v5, something needs to be done to maintain the already fading level of balance we have to work with.

 

If you have yet to see the loot I'm speaking of, you can find it here

 

The first issue that jumps to my mind is obviously the 2H sword. With an upgrade of 45 high end damage, more attack power, which in comparison is an extra 34 over s3 2H mace; and 3 slots to gem, there is a considerable jump up from s3 weapons. Depending on how said slots are gemmed, the gap is even further accentuated when you could potentially stack AP, Crit rating, or even resilience to make up for the loss from using a PVE weapon.

 

The caster side is where the real problems lie. The Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents basically allows you to eliminate any enchanting/gemming for spell hit, freeing up more slots for damage/stam/etc. gems as well as providing an additional 3 slots by itself. All together it could be a significant leap depending on your preference of gemming--much more than can be found between arena seasons.

 

Sunwell Trinkets bring in yet another outside variable that can heavily influence the outcomes of matches. Vial of the Sunwell in specific, could really be an issue. Imagine a Dwarf or Human Priest using the trinket in combination with Desperate prayer and instantly healing for 5k+ before crits are even taken into consideration. Even without DP, an instant 2k heal on a 1 minute cooldown could be pretty useful. Granted, it could be potentially hard to pull off 20 heals per minute, and it also depends on what generates the holy power. If it isn't limited to Direct Heals, 1 tick of renew could give you a 100 charge; and don't even get me started on Druids, can you say, Swiftmend + Vial? It's even worse when you throw a battlemaster trinket into the mix on whatever target needs heals.

 

While at first, the above items might come off as relatively non-threatening in terms of upgrades, consideration must be made to other factors to other factors. First, I'm becoming increasingly concerned with the fact that I doubt Blizzard has any concern with the Arena after 2.4 balance changes; At least, not until WoTLK comes out. Considering the fact that Sunwell doesn't include tier 7, the outlook is pretty grim. At the very least, if Blizzard does pass a season 4 before the x-pack there will be at least a month or two gap between it and Sunwell, allowing these and other PVE items to trickle their way into the Arena. The fact that Blizzard will be creating armor sets that are seamless based on armor type, albeit colored differently, increases my doubts of a season 4 existing; that is, unless Blizzard is interested in a new fashion of rainbow tie-dye and gay pride styled matches.

 

With a potential threat of no season 4 before WoTLK, damage will scale beyond current stamina levels, and resilience will still be capped, except with 2 full seasons of damage upgrades at the same time instead of just one. In my opinion, with the introduction of PI, the damage already hit the cap (arguably broke it) on the current limitations and gearing in terms of survivability (Res/stam). This is why I was supportive of changing PI. Now, instead of where we sit now, PVE gear could potentially break well over this cap and one target switch will be all that is necessary to kill an opponent. This is further reinforced by the ever struggeling Paladins, who would be the largest counter to heavy damage with such strong direct healing. This is also without even considering possible class buffs in 2.4 (although there could be nerfs as well)

 

Even if Sunwell PVE gear doesn't quite go over the edge in terms of damage, the current cap on resilience and stamina will be a problem at some point in the future. At the same time, if the cap were to be lifted, we could see a reduction to crit rate and crit damage that is overbearing and imbalanced in itself. A complete revamp might be in order for WoTLK.

 

In the end, there is still no point whatsoever in allowing PVE gear to be used in the Arena. Why even allow there to be a possibility of an advantage on behalf of one team because they have access to PVE gear? The Arena is sadly the current staple of PVP, and almost everything designed for it has been limited in relative to it's current design set. Allowing PVE to have any impact on PVP when such a huge time investment has already been made to isolate the two biggest aspects of the game from each other is completely asinine.

     
140 comments
berzerk
berzerk Jan 25, 2008 at 8:51 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
Ok, so lets say blizz restricts the use of PvE items in arenas.. so what about *all* the people that don't have FULL PvP sets and PvP weapons? I for example started playing 4 months ago and use a heartrazor for my MH dagger..so all of a sudden I'm gonna have to go farm honor and buy some s1 crap? No thanks.

Think of the people that play at 1800s (im at 1859), many of us don't have full PvP sets, sure the hardcore 2200 teams can handle doing the swap, but many many people just won't be willing to go farm AV for weeks just so they can compete.
Melg
Melg Jan 25, 2008 at 8:53 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
I completely agree, Jasi. PvE should have absolutely zilch effect in arenas. No endgame 2h's, no uber healing/dps sets and weapons, no Totem of Ancestral Guidance (grrr...) etc. It just ruins things when both teams minmax and one team ends up being just plain better because of gear that the other team couldn't get for any amount of gold or time as long as they can't or won't raid.

I mean, it's not level 60 but it's still far from complete. Blizzard should go all the way and only allow pure PvP items (maybe Battlemaster badge cloak) in arenas. Make everyone have the exact same gear once they have all honor arena badge items, professions barred.

Oh and suppress all racials, both passive and active, too kk? If all this is done, and the classes fixed, perhaps we can begin approaching balance and "e-sport quality".
frsg
frsg Jan 25, 2008 at 9:15 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
I think PVP gear must be banned outside of arenas.

You guys with me?
Brilliance
Brilliance Jan 25, 2008 at 10:26 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
Yes, until a sufficient argument that PvP gear should be used in PvE and not vise versa I will always stand by this argument.
faction
faction Jan 25, 2008 at 10:34 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
I know you think you're being a smartass and all but... do you really think if that happened, the average high end arena player would really give a ****? If thats what it takes, **** yes do it
nzgs
nzgs Jan 25, 2008 at 2:41 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
most arena players would agree with this since their whole game is centered on arena. Raiders on the other hand raid for items and want to use them for an advantage in arena. So raiders would lose out a lot more.
Caal
Caal Jan 25, 2008 at 9:59 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
Why do people keep referring to this kind of stuff and lol @ wow as an esport? What's available in game and what's available at tournaments are two very different things. Guess what, I don't have to deal with Stormherald at tournaments! Void Star Talisman? NOPE!

Wake up people...

If you're a talented individual and you're interested in being sponsored, you're going to put in that little bit of extra effort into getting sponsored. Neilyo's a great example of someone who put together all sorts of videos and eventually got his name out there. Just shutup and play the ******* game, then you too won't give two ****s about what someone is packing in arena.
BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Jan 25, 2008 at 10:10 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
Are there even any wow tournaments left? But yea it's an online only issue and unfortunately nearly 100% of this game's competition is online.
Brilliance
Brilliance Jan 25, 2008 at 10:27 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
It won't rise as an e-sport for anyone but a very limited number of WoW PvPers. There is just too large of a gap between people who care, people who don't, and those who don't even play WoW.
Caal
Caal Jan 25, 2008 at 10:43 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
What a strange statement... How is that not relevant in any online game? I can tell you from personal experience that it's becoming more popular. Perhaps more so overseas.. but that's to be expected. The problem isn't necessarily with the game's shortcoming as far as viewability goes. The scene just needs time to grow. If American people don't embrace it, I'm sure other people will. I had random swedish people walking up to me to start a conversation about how I played a Druid in certain situations... at the bar.
Trupster
Trupster Jan 25, 2008 at 12:07 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
Alright, you put the items aside to reduce imbalances. Then you still got the biggest problem of it all: class, spec (and racial) imbalances.
Inactive
Inactive Jan 25, 2008 at 6:17 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
doesn't change the fact there is still extreme RNG, counter comping, etc. Wow as a game is pathetic in e-sports and in online play compared to other games, maybe in time that'll change but I doubt it since blizz has down syndrome. I mean at least I won't lose $25000 because someone mace stuns me amirite?
Adzzy
Adzzy Jan 25, 2008 at 6:44 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
it's an mmo, rng is part of the game, rng was part of the game from the very beginning with crits, misses, resists, dodges, parries. etc. now it's been added to cc's, and dispels.

MMO == RNG
Diokhan
Diokhan Jan 25, 2008 at 10:27 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
Item imbalance will always ruin pvp in wow as long as wow keeps being item based. "Caugh daoc caugh"
Riddik
Riddik Jan 25, 2008 at 10:30 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
Lets stop crying about people actually playing the game and making use of the gear they earned.
faction
faction Jan 25, 2008 at 10:32 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
it's not just healers lol, seen that retarded shadowstep rogue in t6 video?
nzgs
nzgs Jan 25, 2008 at 2:43 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
yep i saw that yesterday, proof beyong any doubt that you can put BT gear on a 1200 player and make him into a 2200 player.
b30tch
b30tch Jan 25, 2008 at 10:38 am
None
None
+0 votes
None
I'll do whatever I have to do to get the best gear, if you are spending all that time to get a weapon or armor knowing that there is better out there, then who's fault is that? people that bring pve gear into the arena spent time to get that, and people are *****ing because that got there ass whooped. You know you can do what they did don't you? If you don't want to do it, it is because you are lazy or you just like to cry about stuff. How old are you people?
wisdomcube
wisdomcube Jan 25, 2008 at 11:20 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
I dont have a problem with PVE gear in arena because well you have to put more time in to PVE while being bored out of your ****ing mind. I wanted to do ZA yesterday so i got a group after 1 shotting the first 4 bosses with a pug i found myself thinking....why the **** am i here this is so boring.

Sure the trinkets and the weapons need toned down from Sunwell but it also depends on when they are releasing sunwell u know how blizzard is with delays.
entrails
entrails Jan 25, 2008 at 11:20 am
None
None
+1 votes
None
the people who have a problem with pve  gear in arena are the serious competitors, the top ~20 teams, pissed off that someone who is arguably less skilled then them is beating them, or ahead of them in the rankings, because they have equipment that they "earned" not through skill, but through a time sink most pvpers find boring.  and the only items causing problems are the very top end of pve, in the hands of the few people who can and care to use them in arenas.

lets level the playing field between pvp and pve gear and give 2300 or top .5% or w/e teams access to alternate sets of gear that are actually as good as top end pve  gear.  if you're in the top 20 you meet the requirement to pick up t6 equivalent paladin gear, or rogue gear, and weapons on par with the latest pve weapons, and trinkets that are just as OP in pve as they are in pvp. 

now lets see the pvers argue about who earned what, when, for some limited slots, the BEST they can find for raiding is completely out of their reach because it's only available through high end arena.
Praetorian
Praetorian Jan 25, 2008 at 11:53 am
None
None
+2 votes
None
This is a better direction in which to go.  There is a world of difference between a Duelist and a legit Merc Glad, yet two months into the season both will have identical gear.  I'd have no problem whatsoever with the very best teams being able to obtain gear that's a notch above the current season, and/or has interesting procs and effects like some PvE gear.  I'd have no problem if people who only raided, or who simply didn't have the skill/dedication to reach those levels in PvP, were at a disadvantage in PvE as a result.

Add more options and more complexity.  Don't dumb everything down.  This is MMORPG PvP:  The thought and effort a player puts into building their character should mean something significant.  S1 was really interesting because few people were sporting cap resil and people were still experimenting with various specs, comps, and gear setups.  Now in high-end arena I'd argue that mixing in PvE gear is almost one of the only innovating things that people can do.  Whether it's a DPS class who sacrifices durability for more damage output, or specific set bonuses that offer good arena synergy, at least it's something different than the same legion of clones with the same gear and one of at most two or three specs depending on class.  I'd love to see a huge variety of items on arena vendors, more than anyone but a 2500-rated 5v5 team could possibly hope to purchase in one season, with different stat setups and procs and set bonuses and variable personal rating requirements.  That would actually enrich the game, I think.  Maybe make a separate bracket for people who all just want to be identical clones of each other, where you're autoequipped with a full suit of temporary Glad gear upon zoning in.

This blog post and so many of the responses are really just more of the typical complaining from one group of the playerbase that wants the game to revolve exclusively around their personal playstyle.  It's no different from raiders complaining about PvP epics and wanting them to be usable in arena only, or "casuals" wanting to fight Illidan in a 5-man dungeon and get high-quality epic loot because they don't have the time or inclination to raid, or whatever.  Without some sort of original idea, it's just more whining.
Darkeblue
Darkeblue Jan 25, 2008 at 12:18 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
Giving the top .5% pvpers access to better gear is actually a pretty good solution.
resilve
resilve Jan 25, 2008 at 12:52 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
If PvE gear is as gamebreaking as some people will make out (I dont agree) then surely by that logic giving the best players superior gear/options would kill off all competition right?
entrails
entrails Jan 25, 2008 at 12:59 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
the gear is already there, it's just not evenly distributed in the hands of good players.
Caal
Caal Jan 25, 2008 at 2:12 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
What a friggin HORRIBLE idea.

I DONT WANT GEAR THAT IS BETTER THAN YOURS.
entrails
entrails Jan 25, 2008 at 5:34 pm
None
None
+1 votes
None
i don't want better gear then the people i'm fighting either, i think the idea of a resilience penetration stat is the best solution, or anything to allow bliz to further differentiate pve and pvp items. my idea was mostly to show pvers the flip side of the mantra they've overused throughout this thread; that "they earned it" so they should be allowed to use it in competitive arena. it was more of an analogy then a serious suggestion. that said, is it really that terrible? i'd rather see gear in the hands of all the top arena players, then belonging only to the people who invest in a pve time sink.

sure, the established arena teams would have an advantage over border glad teams or new teams, but no more so then anyone who raids has now.
THE SPOTLIGHT
Pornstar Friday, Wal-mart vs. blacks, Fermi, NCAA
1 of 9
THE IMAGE FEED
251 images uploaded in the last 60 days. Got an image you need hosted?
Copyright ©2007-2010 GameRiot All Rights Reserved.