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by Ming, Level 67
Last updated at April 8, 2008, 3:37 am
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Kind of like my situation with Blackdragon Flight. For a while I was hit pretty hard by Bynis's retirement. Our RMP went from top 10 on the ladder to a 2000 scrub team. I didn't really have time to commit to any raid guilds and sat in the "Rogue Trainer" guild Ultimus created. Other than the small batch of arena games a week to keep points flowing, and some random BGs here and there, I thought I was playing a single player game. At that point I actually did talk to a few BG9 players with solid ratings and transferring to a larger server looked pretty appealing. I couldn't even get epic red gems on my server and things felt pretty dead.
That is when merciless gladiator Wojo and his warrior friend landed on the server like the rich white couple who just bought the house down the street to start a family. With the economy (arena) slowdowns everywhere, people are moving out of Manhattan (BG9) and going back to their hometowns. A few more weeks without a top team, I would have almost certainly moved to BG9 to find a consistent supply of quality teammates! But now with the TTR/tournament server allowing everyone to play together, I suddenly find myself playing RLD with American online 2v2 champion Dhaoss, WRD with merciless gladiator Wojo, RRD with Serennia (although I still see him ultimately going to his warrior roots for the tournament, since that is his flagship character and druid took some huge nerfs in 2.4), and an invitation from Realz/Ronmexico to play rogue/shadow priest/resto shaman! In my own BG, I suddenly find myself top 5 in 5v5 and top 10 in 3v3. Things definitely changed for the better.
I know with one month server transfers, it is easier than ever for people to leave their neighborhood and move to the big cities. But I have heard of way too many stories where someone left their friends to join another team/guild only to have it fall apart, and the player quits the game shortly after. Blizzard is making it easier than ever to raid and PVP. Relationship is what keeps people playing during the slow nights.
PVP vs PVE:
On the night when TBC launched, I promised the rogue community that I will prove rogue is the number one 1v1 class in the game. Ever since that day, I have been searching for a suitable container with one or more warglaives and full PVE gear to overcome the healing classes. I asked Stryfe-kun to donate his body to the cause of the rogue community. He has the mouthwatering 4S3 + 4T6 set-up and I could have very easily made a WCM platinum dueling video but sadly, he declined. My best shot is probably the other warglaive rogue on my server who is still using S2 sword for offhand.
I know people will say the fact that a warglaive rogue can't crack 1850 is the living proof that PVP takes way more skills! But for every PVE Is Hard, there are countless PVE guilds made of PVPers that fell apart (and yes, I was in one that couldn't clear ZA, every player on the roster over 2100 in at least one bracket), and even more gladiator teams from top PVE guilds. While being the 2000th US guild to kill Illidan with members with both raid experience and PVE gear is . . . not exactly an amazing feat.
Arena for the most part is turning into its own scripted encounters. Our warrior/rogue/hunter/priest/druid played a lot of games against Nick's warrior/mage/hunter/priest/paladin this past weekend. The first three games were very intense, by the seventh game it started to turn dry, and by the 15th game . . . let's just say I was looking for excuses to "dodge queue". Every fight I went on the exact same target (their mage) and had to pop defensive cooldowns against the exact same "boss attacks". I was trying to keep expose armor and slice and dice up as much as I could, while my warrior was sundering their priest . . . Sure there were a few random target switches here and there, but in the end it was just like a 5 men instance.
If arena is really complicated, I shouldn't be able to beat all these big name BG9 teams, first night playing a comp that I never played before. With the exceptions of playing against teams that play a very different comp/style (just like learning new encounters?), as soon as the gate opens I can already calculate our chance of winning, and everyone knew exactly what they were supposed to do on both sides.
Last but not least, being the guild master of a large raiding guild is probably the most valuable learning experience you can get out of WOW, and requires most skills. Just like real life, people skill is far more important than individual strength. The successful GMs will develop very strong leadership skills that will benefit them immensely when they move on from WOW. Believe it!

117 comments
Hogan Apr 8, 2008 at 11:53 am
+3 votes
GUYS DO NOT MAKE ANY COMMENTS, DONT GIVE MING THE SATISFACTION. IF YOU HATE MING DONT COMMENT. DO NOT COMMENT.
Btw, pathetic attempt to copy Jasi to get hits, Ming.
Btw, pathetic attempt to copy Jasi to get hits, Ming.
gblol Apr 8, 2008 at 3:44 am
+11 votes
Jasi did a good writeup on the whole pvp/pve discussion you should go comment on that instead of reposting this and trolling for comments.
isobelle Apr 9, 2008 at 9:26 pm
+1 votes
jasi trolled 400+ replies. it was hardly his thought provoking "article".
i could write a blog stating how most rogues can't get erections, and it would elicit troll responses too.
GG
i could write a blog stating how most rogues can't get erections, and it would elicit troll responses too.
GG
Akumos Apr 8, 2008 at 4:03 am
+1 votes
Being a GM puts a strain on your sanity more than anything in this game I'd say.
Path Apr 8, 2008 at 4:16 am
+2 votes
ATM every random player with 0 skill can get just with PVP farming (BGs and 1500 rating arena teams):
- Season 3 arena head, chest, gloves, pants and ranged/relic/wand.
- Season 2 arena shoulders and weapons.
- Season 3 honor bracers, belt, boots, trinket and ring.
- Season 2 honor cloak, ring.
- Honor PVP Trinket.
Try to get something like that with 0 skill doing PVE.
For 95% player base PVE is way harder than PVP, end of discussion.
- Season 3 arena head, chest, gloves, pants and ranged/relic/wand.
- Season 2 arena shoulders and weapons.
- Season 3 honor bracers, belt, boots, trinket and ring.
- Season 2 honor cloak, ring.
- Honor PVP Trinket.
Try to get something like that with 0 skill doing PVE.
For 95% player base PVE is way harder than PVP, end of discussion.
Phant Apr 8, 2008 at 5:38 am
+5 votes
Jasi's logic was flawed in his last post. That aside Path, you realize that at 1500 rating you are accumaling 300~ points a week. To get all the items you just listed you are looking at 10k+ Arena points. So yeah, someone with no skill can get decent/good gear in 6-8 months. The same 1500 scrub could easily get a decent guild to carry him through SSC/TK and have full T5 epics in 2-3 months raiding 2-3 nights a week requiring no skill on his part. The difference? The PVE scrub gets his gear faster by playing 2-3x more a week. Whereas the PVP scrub doesn't have to play as much but has to wait longer.
"For 95% player base PVE is way harder than PVP, end of discussion."
Nope, and just because PVP gear may be easier to get as you say, it in no way supports your conclusion that PVE is harder than PVP.
"For 95% player base PVE is way harder than PVP, end of discussion."
Nope, and just because PVP gear may be easier to get as you say, it in no way supports your conclusion that PVE is harder than PVP.
Path Apr 8, 2008 at 6:00 am
+0 votes
Ofc, i mean "getting gear", this discussion originally comes from "welfare epics" threads.
A player with 0 skill should be banned from every decent raiding guild, but yes, he can pay or something and getting boosted in PVE content, like he can pay and buy a 2000-2200 rating teams and get epics even faster than PVE farming.
Conclusion, the same: for 95% player base "getting epics" doing PVE is way harder than doing at PVP.
A player with 0 skill should be banned from every decent raiding guild, but yes, he can pay or something and getting boosted in PVE content, like he can pay and buy a 2000-2200 rating teams and get epics even faster than PVE farming.
Conclusion, the same: for 95% player base "getting epics" doing PVE is way harder than doing at PVP.
Aziraphale Apr 9, 2008 at 12:32 am
+1 votes
He doesn't have to pay to get in a good guild, he just has to write a solid app. You really think all 25 people in good raiding guilds are good?
Eevri Apr 8, 2008 at 5:55 am
+1 votes
Yes because skill is obviously entirely determined by the quality of someones gear, right? And the term "PvP" is used to directly refer to Afkgrounds and the 1500's bracket, right?
Retarded PvE mentality; dumbass.
Retarded PvE mentality; dumbass.
sillyming Apr 8, 2008 at 6:27 am
+1 votes
sorry but you can just buy a 2k+ team play 10 games per week and get everything but shoulders and weapon(those you can from previous season) greatly faster
but there's no need to compare this
pretty much what phant said anyway
pretty much what phant said anyway
Zapatos Apr 8, 2008 at 6:28 am
+2 votes
It takes almost 11 months to get full s3 with s2 shoulders/weapons with a 1500s team. In that time, you could, with full greens and 0 "skill", farm enough gold and quests to buy a full set of epic craftables & exalted rep items. Not exactly a convincing argument.
drole Apr 8, 2008 at 7:38 am
+1 votes
I am pretty sure i can pug myself to more or less similar gear while being halfway afk. It might take a but of extra time but that doesn't mean i cant do it.
Eevri Apr 8, 2008 at 8:03 am
+2 votes
It takes absolutely zero ( Z E R O ) skill, in either PVP or PVE, to collect gear in this game.
The only difference is the amount of time spent getting that gear, which is also unrelated to skill.
So stop ******* talking about "omg its much easier to farm gear in pvx than pvx" because it has no ******* relevance to the topic.
The only difference is the amount of time spent getting that gear, which is also unrelated to skill.
So stop ******* talking about "omg its much easier to farm gear in pvx than pvx" because it has no ******* relevance to the topic.
Sele Apr 8, 2008 at 8:41 am
+1 votes
Path your argument is so flawed it makes me cry.
You post a bunch of crap and in the end you throw a tottaly irrelevant conclusion, which has nothing to do with the rest.
The only thing you proved is that everyone can get GEAR from PVP, regardless their skill. That and only that. Something which ofc noone refuses cause it's truth.
But from there you make a logic jump and say PVP is easier than PVE. That's tottaly wrong and unsupported. You would be correct if you only had said "in PvP you can get easier gear than in PvE" and stop right there, cause with all the info you posted, that's the only safe and true conclusion you can reach into.
The fact that you can get gear more easily doesn't mean that it's easier.
You post a bunch of crap and in the end you throw a tottaly irrelevant conclusion, which has nothing to do with the rest.
The only thing you proved is that everyone can get GEAR from PVP, regardless their skill. That and only that. Something which ofc noone refuses cause it's truth.
But from there you make a logic jump and say PVP is easier than PVE. That's tottaly wrong and unsupported. You would be correct if you only had said "in PvP you can get easier gear than in PvE" and stop right there, cause with all the info you posted, that's the only safe and true conclusion you can reach into.
The fact that you can get gear more easily doesn't mean that it's easier.
akkando Apr 9, 2008 at 10:12 pm
+1 votes
1500 arena ratings means you are about average which is good enough to kill Illidan if you can worm your way into a BT guild. My guild has many 1500 rated players and we can kill Illidan.
Triadar Apr 8, 2008 at 4:40 am
+2 votes
The second half of this blog seems familiar... oh wait, Jasi already wrote it.
Kintt Apr 8, 2008 at 4:42 am
+4 votes
Its funny I was thinking quite similar thoughts to your last three paragraphs after reading Jasi's blog yesterday. Agree 100%


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