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by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at November 30, 2007, 7:32 pm
As I watched MOB Turtleforce (and Team Pandemic who used the same strategy for same results) dismantled Hamchook's hunter, warlock, priest team with a hard counter of rogue, rogue, druid, as big a fan as I am for Hamchook, and as much as I wanted him to win, I have to say it is a good thing for the game. Limiting the number of players per team to 3, but allow every player to play multiple classes will greatly, greatly increase the skill cap for a game that for many, didn't have the depth or high enough of a skill cap to be a serious tournament game. Being able to play 2-3 classes at tournament level, on the fly, will truly separate good players from great ones, and I hope this tournament format continues.



The difference between top 1% players is slim to none, but being able to play three classes at 2400+ level definitely deserves some serious respect from an e-sport perspective. While this is quite difficult to enforce from an online tournament's perspective (and Gameriot finally received tournament license from Blizzard, expect major news next week!), it will add so much more flavor to offline play. If you want to run multiple comps, fine, you gotta have players that are completely confident with multiple classes, instead of simply have the deep pocket to bring six players per tournament.



Either way, MOB Godfather has to be very happy to see his last minute recruit Hamchook getting a third place finish. And his MOB Turtleforce, starring Xecks the golden child, Ohnoes "Cuter than Xecks" (according to Imberlyn from the first time I posted a picture of the crew), and Spoh the druid class hero, will have two chances to dethrone Pandemic tomorrow at 9AM Eastern Time. While Pandemic has psychological advantage over Turtleforce given their past records, I really feel without Zizek's (lack of) flexbility, Xecks's team will finally be able to play even comp.  Seriously, I think we should coin a new term "you got Zizeked" when you get outcomped by opponents who are simply more flexible than you. 



I think rogue, rogue and druid should do pretty well against rogue mage priest (or any team without a paladin for that matter), will we see a RRD vs RRD final? Will Xecks finally have his golden moment? Don't miss it even if I know it is hard to wake up that early on Saturday's, especially when you have averaged 4-5 hours of sleep a night for an entire week, like I did.



Now for the bigger news in rogue community, hemo on PTR has been nerfed to 110% weapon damage. Assuming it is still normalized, rogues with 2.8 weapons will gain 1-2% hemo damage over 2.2 hemo in most PVP situations, rogues with 2.6 weapons will see roughly a 6-7% gain in hemo damage. To be honest, as big of a hit as this is, the +36 debuff over +10 debuff was what made me excited about this spec to begin with. I would have specced AR/prep without the 100% to 125% weapon damage buff, as I believe it was already the strongest overall spec in 2.2 and the +36 debuff already made it a no-brainer for me over full combat maces. Hopefully we will find out what the new +debuff is, soon.



I do believe hemo should outdamage untalented sinister strike (and it still does in term of damage per energy), but I am not sure if hemo should outdamage 41 combat sinister strikes. I don't see people going back to combat mace or mutilate's as hemo/prep will remain dominant, I do see more SF hemo users, especially these with access to the amazing T6 trinket. With S3 gear, if you stack crit gems/enchants you can hit 34% crit unbuffed very easily, if you can toss a T6 trinket on top of it, you will be maintaining 40%+ crit with non-top finishers. That is a lot of combo points even if you are against 400+ resilience. Of course getting the trinket is the hard part. Without it I will stay AR/prep. I don't know if there will be any guild that will take a large sum of gold and help me get attuned and kill enough trash mobs to get exalted, but I guess as the season progresses, T6 guilds will be more common place and this isn't completely out of question. I will most likely get Berserker's Call and stay AR/prep however.



Shadowstep is getting better and better, but I still believe shadowstep is meant for daggers. With ambush buff, if they make sinister calling reduce backstab energy by 2 per point (50 energy backstabs), I can see it become really competitive. Either way, I was worried they will take AR off prep which would destroy the spec completely. Everyone would be going CB hemo instead. The fix hurt, but it was needed, especially if 3v3 stays as the most dominant tournament format. Hopefully they will buff daggers a little more then everyone will be happy. Combat should remain the best PVE tree, subtlety should be the best PVP tree, and assassination should be a good blend of both, offering some unique advantages in certain comps over subtlety.



In conclusion, I think AR/prep will still be by far, the most dominant arena spec. 30% of my damage is from the actual hemos. I somehow doubt a 2-3% nerf in overall damage (and let's face it, you are not bursting nobody down with this spec) will change the big picture. I just want to know what the new debuff is.
     
86 comments
Rejzer
Rejzer Nov 30, 2007 at 7:44 pm
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Won't be difficult for me to wake up to see the game. I live in Sweden :p

Hmm, don't like this hemo nerf but we will see what the new debuff will be.
Holdstrong
Holdstrong Nov 30, 2007 at 7:53 pm
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Why stick with Hemo AR/Prep over SS Ar/Prep? Especially when factoring in Aggression and BT. Is there some hidden math I am not seeing here...

Anyway, lots of classes got really nice 2.3 buffs. Hemo was ours. Without it, I sort of feel like a 2.2 class fighting 2.3 classes. I'll most likely be forced into my old SS AR/Prep - or, even if I stick with Hemo it won't be significantly better than SS - so essentially I am what I was in 2.2. Only difference at that point really is the Blind change and the deadly throw nerf.  I wasn't overly happy with Rogue's performance in 2.2 so it is hard to be happy about any of this.
Ming
Ming Nov 30, 2007 at 7:56 pm
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Hemo with debuff still outdamages SS with aggression, easily.  And you save 4 talent points.
Holdstrong
Holdstrong Nov 30, 2007 at 8:12 pm
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So in other words, yes, I am missing some of the math. 

At 1500 ap I have Sinister Strikes, with just aggression, hitting around 645.  Hemos, without debuff factored are around 562.  The debuff doesnt close that gap.

Oh and the 4 saved talent points don't mean much at all to me, hell, I am practically wasting points on nonsense fillers like camo and imp slice and dice just trying to get to AR and Prep.
Sarmet
Sarmet Nov 30, 2007 at 8:45 pm
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i don't play a rogue, but I'm pretty sure part of it is the lesser cost of hemo
Holdstrong
Holdstrong Nov 30, 2007 at 11:41 pm
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SS is 40e, Hemo is 35e

So given the numbers I posted for 1500ap, you can do the math per energy
Kolik
Kolik Dec 1, 2007 at 12:40 pm
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It's not like it's the the damage alone that makes a 35 energy attack better then a 40 SS, it has alot to do with the energy it frees up to actually maintain cc etc.. And dont start the potential proc bull**** of potency, procs are never good with a % chance in pvp.
Plaguecat
Plaguecat Nov 30, 2007 at 7:53 pm
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second
and no, this nerf sux major dick
zyZ-
zyZ- Nov 30, 2007 at 8:06 pm
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staybert
staybert Nov 30, 2007 at 8:05 pm
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Pretty sure that both teams will be running their standard setups tomorrow, RMP vs RMD.

More details on all the matches such as setups, arenas and more can be found on http://www.sk-gaming.com/wow/
Solange
Solange Nov 30, 2007 at 8:18 pm
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rumor is the new debuff is 37, up(!) from 36. the nerfed hemo will hit per energy just as hard as aggression SS, but of course do more damage overall from debuff.

not so sure what the big deal with the debuff is in pvp, it just makes your white attacks hit for 36 each. very nice, but having a special that hits hard, and super hard at <35% life, is pretty important too.

In addition, this ends the pve hemo rogue, after a whole two weeks. just pathetic that the devs care so little about players that instead of using their brains and making final decisions on the ptr, they let it go live and yank it in 12 days, this upsetting the crap out of 100000 rogues.
troilism
troilism Nov 30, 2007 at 10:46 pm
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ya spamming hemo is so ******* different from SS.
Stryider
Stryider Nov 30, 2007 at 8:19 pm
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I'm curious to see what the comps will be tomorrow and I'm happy that I actually have the chance to wake up early and watch it rather than missing it entirely.  I'm not sure who I'm rooting for at this point but the matches should be very interesting. 

Regarding the Hemo nerf I think we're going to have to wait to see what the debuff is.  Closing the gap with the debuff helps and having that extra 5 energy over SS adds up in the long run.  I still feel like changing some of the mobility issues (i.e. change sprint to a 5 second duration, 45 second cooldown or something of the sort) would do a lot more for the class and allow better expansion of our talents later down the line. 

As it stands it seems the developers are spending their time on band aid fixes that won't sustain the class in the long run.  Just my 2 cents anyway.  I'm just a scrub.
Zizek
Zizek Nov 30, 2007 at 8:30 pm
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3 people playing multiple classes isn't good for the game when playing them in a countercomp doesn't actually require the 2400 play ability you misguidedly think it does. One of the games Insurrection beat Pandemic, Azurewrath was playing a Warrior. His experience as a Warrior? He leveled one to 43. About two years ago. Malice was able to beat us playing Rogue/Rogue/Druid even though his experience as a Rogue was at 60 some time ago. And do you think too that we couldn't have just fielded a Warrior Double Healer of even 1600~ rated performance and not beaten that comp? We weren't trying to play Rock Paper Scissors, we were trying to get a disadvantaged comp and make it work because we knew we could beat their primary setups with it, but Rogues are so one-dimensional that we couldn't, good execution or not.

Your vision of the game is incredibly dumb. I think the Insurrection vs Pandemic match proved that, because it's exactly what you described.

Insurrection's primary setup is Mage/Druid/Warlock.
This beats Pandemic's Rogue/Mage/Priest.
So Pandemic ran Druid/Warlock/Rogue.
So Insurrection ran Druid/Warrior/Warlock and beat it even though the Warrior had virtually no experience.
And Pandemic can beat that with their original Rogue/Mage/Priest.

When the series was tied 2-2, choosing the game 5 comp took like 15 minutes of stupid, and then when the comps were finally chosen, everyone knew Pandemic was going to win the moment the comp's were revealed because it's literally impossible for Insurrection's Warlock/Mage/Druid to beat Warlock/Rogue/Druid as Ohnoes proved in round 2, when he (with no previous experience on a Warlock) was able to countercomp Insurrection's primary setup anyway.

This is good competition to you? Are you dumb? Do you really think that spectators want to watch people playing alt classes and running weird, stupidly overspecialized countercomps because of how effective they can be when piloted by people with just a vague understanding of the class? If Gameriot really is going to start serious online tournaments, you should do them a favor and remove yourself from that process, because you clearly have no idea how to make WoW thrive as an esport.
Tlear
Tlear Nov 30, 2007 at 8:39 pm
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Well said.

In the final of the World Cup. We have Italy playing the feared 2 4 4 formation, OMGODZ France is countering with 1 4 3 2. The game is decided!
Uthgar
Uthgar Nov 30, 2007 at 10:20 pm
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Wow I am sad to hear this is how my friends lost. I haven't been able to communicate with them and now at least I know how it happened.

Kyle really has barely played a warrior. He hasn't even fooled around on one of our warrior accounts.
evolv
evolv Nov 30, 2007 at 10:26 pm
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This has been summed up very well. It has been the reason that I am seriously doubting WoW will ever truly be an esport...

I just can't see a bright future for WoW anymore.

Doing the "counter comp game" will likely ruin this game for me. I can't say it is Blizz's fault though. Having many unique classes has been what made this game great. With so many diff abilities comes counters. So I just can't see a good solution to this problem.
Zizek
Zizek Nov 30, 2007 at 10:42 pm
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WoW definitely has tons of potential as an esport but I think thusfar it's been poorly implemented is all. Several of the matches in Toronto were intensely close and fun to watch, only to have it culminate in some 6 DPS 10 second face roll extraganza grand final because like 4 of the people in the top 6 played alts. This event was just horrendous, I don't think I've ever seen a higher concentration of people with little to no (and I do mean no) experience with a class playing it in a counter and then winning.

3v3 is a good format, but class swapping needs to be completely disallowed (at least until we can ease our way into a competitive rule set that isn't as terrible as what we have now).
Zizek
Zizek Nov 30, 2007 at 10:42 pm
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thinktankz
thinktankz Dec 1, 2007 at 1:54 am
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weren't you playing in the tournament as a warlock even though your main class is shadow priest?
Zizek
Zizek Dec 1, 2007 at 7:42 am
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Yes, except the difference is I actually leveled my Warlock to 70, played at least 1000 Arena matches on it, and completely geared it (Maximin on Dragonmaw). My Warlock has been my Arena main for about four months now since Shadow Priests have gotten extremely weak in high end PvP. Anyway I've actually been playing a Warlock since before even Louisville WSVG but 3 DPS (with Zecks and Ohnoes) would be far weaker without a 0.5 healer Mass Dispeller, and their other class experience was mostly useless (like Ohnoes plays a Rogue very well, but that does nothing with the WSVG's class stacking rule) so my ability to play a Warlock was never relevant. This is much different than what went on at Dreamhack... there were several people setting up classes just on the fly solely to countercomp. It was pretty pathetic.
Raphiron1
Raphiron1 Dec 1, 2007 at 9:36 am
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And that is exactly why WoW tournaments should be in the 5v5 format.
bife
bife Dec 3, 2007 at 11:59 am
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what would make it fairer:
* no class stacking
* limited amount of comp switching per tournament, so people have to think before using it
* people shouldn't know what's the actual comp the other team will be running (dunno if it's already this way) so people can't tailor countercomps.
Arma
Arma Nov 30, 2007 at 8:32 pm
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In my opinion you definitiely underestimate the 41/20/0 Specc.
Only with this Specc it was possible to reach the 2421 Rating at the end of last Season woth my Rogue/Priest/Pala/Mage/Schamy combo.  You can't stay always at your target and in this way Mutilate has a lot of pros because of dmg and the more of combat points. It will be always possible to have Expose Armor, Stun and SnD up, if u need it.
Solange
Solange Nov 30, 2007 at 8:43 pm
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rumor is the new debuff is 37, up(!) from 36. the nerfed hemo will hit per energy just as hard as aggression SS, but of course do more damage overall from debuff.

not so sure what the big deal with the debuff is in pvp, it just makes your white attacks hit for 36 each. very nice, but having a special that hits hard, and super hard at <35% life, is pretty important too.

In addition, this ends the pve hemo rogue, after a whole two weeks. just pathetic that the devs care so little about players that instead of using their brains and making final decisions on the ptr, they let it go live and yank it in 12 days, this upsetting the crap out of 100000 rogues.
Blashinko
Blashinko Nov 30, 2007 at 9:27 pm
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Agreed, lets make everything that has been put in the game permenant. Any mistakes should be ignored.
Valyr
Valyr Nov 30, 2007 at 9:38 pm
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Just wondering, when EST wise, is the grand finale being held? I sure wouldn't want to miss this!
zyZ-
zyZ- Nov 30, 2007 at 9:55 pm
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derry
derry Nov 30, 2007 at 10:13 pm
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are you sure? isnt 14:00 CET 8am EST?
Valyr
Valyr Dec 1, 2007 at 12:45 am
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