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 by Ming, Level 67
Last updated at March 24, 2009, 1:27 am
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The weekend went by and the TR duels continued. European mutilate hero Boozt peaced out Emcl 4-0 and I expect to see him taking on tougher classes from here. The big news over the weekend was Litreocola topping Lupi in an epic series 4-3 as he created a dwarf rogue to deal with dwarf hunter stone form + wyern sting. Litre recorded the full series and you can expect some epic matches from his angle!
Unfortunately, even with his progress against inferior mages, Litre had no luck with Vengeful Gladiator Venruki. He went down 1-4 in the rematch, and I am still looking for a rogue hero who can take Venruki down. It is one thing to beat a frost mage specced/gemmed for arena, but the true test comes when everyone is geared/specced to the max for duels! Perhaps someone can make a gnome rogue and put up a bigger fight? Although Litre complained about the smaller hit boxes of gnomes putting him out of melee range, I think it is probably just a visual thing to get used to.
Certified Opponents:
Warrior: Sonydigital (LF1M)
Paladin: Symm, Teknique
Death Knights: Serennia, Jones
Mage: Venruki, Pookz
Priest: Scarywerk, Menismyforte
Druid: LF2M Top Tree Druid (Feral is cool too)
Warlock: Azael, Psyhawk (haven't fought Psyhawk but he should be good practice)
Defeated Opponents:
Only recorded official series CONFIRMED BY YOUR OPPONENT count, and only best of 7's are accepted. Feel free to fraps your own series and send the raw clip with sound to me. First person is probably much better than third person for the audience anyhow. If you win the series I will include your best win, if you lose the series but put up a good fight, I will include your closest loss.
Shaman: Emcl (First Series Victory By Litrecola 4-2)
Hunter: Lupi (First Series Victory By Litreocola 4-3)
Destruction Warlocks Poised To Make A Comeback In 3.1?
I certainly hope so, as the controlled burst style of destruction probably makes rogue a superior partner. Whenever I play with my affliction warlock partner Streygo in 3v3, I wish I was a DK instead . . . With gladiator cutoff point being super high this season, there is a lot of pressure for rogue heroes to play at their best, before their partners leave for greener pastures. Hopefully there will be a good 2 week window after 3.1 comes out, so we can make a big push, possibly with our warlock as destruction.
In any case, I read about him in a Chinese forum, but Torment of The Underbog took destruction warlock / frost mage to the #1 spot on his 2v2 ladder, with a 74% win rate. And yes he did it drakedog style, with the good old succubus. He even had a 2200+ lock/mage/rogue triple DPS before. It doesn't matter which BG he did this in, you have to appreciate his talent and creativity. It is not often someone can play a fresh comp with a high skill cap, and do extremely well with it. If any team is looking for a top unsponsored warlock for 3.1, give him a serious look! Players who played a low-popularity spec at a high level are almost always better than people who jump on the flavor-of-the-month train (see Nick Hammer and retribution). American WOW runs on warlocks, always remember that!
Blizzard Done With Rogues In 3.1?
Yet another patch went by without a single rogue change (only class to be left out, all other 9 received some changes), while paladins received aura mastery (10 second interrupt/silence immunity for the entire group), hunters received on demand root off entrapment (frost trap = frost nova plus the everlasting snare effect), and warriors are poised to take a big leap forward with the huge changes they received. Meanwhile, rogues got nothing more than PVE damage buffs in 3.1, the hokage felt like he had to at least post his concerns on the official rogue forum/PTR forums/Class Role Forums, so here it is. Whether you agree with my suggested changes or not, we can all agree the rogue class needs changes, so please, bump the threads and join the cause!
At the moment we are tied for last place with warriors in most arena rankings, and warriors are getting HUGE buffs for 3.1. Outside of a singular 3v3 comp in RMP (which can't crack top 10 on American tournament realms), rogue doesn't have a single top comp in any bracket. Is your message "unless you can't find a top mage + priest, don't play arena as a rogue?" It sure feels like it, because in all other comps, you can replace the rogue with another class and achieve superior results.
Rogues have the worst mobility, survivability and damage of any true melee classes in PVP. Other classes are seeing big PVP changes for 3.1, we need help before it is too late! So far all you have given us, is more PVE damage. I have watched patch after patch after patch gone by on the PTR, today's patch had changes for 9 out of 10 classes, guess which class was left out?
Lower Mobility Than Plate:
Warriors have 15 second intercepts plus snare/root removal + instant intercept CD refresh on a 45 second cooldown. Feral druid's have unlimited snare/root removals, plus 15 second CD feral charges. Rogues have . . . two sprints (useless against snares), two vanishes (often need to be saved for survivability/offense), or a 30 second CD shadowstep (which forces you to sacrifice a ton of damage, unlike feral/fury) that can't even be used in root. Why is a light armor melee class less mobile than plate/bear? There is no easier class to kite than rogue, even death knights have 20 second CD death grip's, and paladins have 20 second CD blessing of freedoms on top of ranged stuns.
Lower Survivability Than Cloth:
Rogue is the only class that can't survive a single stun. Kidney shot, hammer of justice, intercept, you name it, you can play the entire game perfectly, and a single intercept can bring you from 100-0 that is with almost 800 resilience and 3/3 deadened nerve on my rogue. Against any team with a rogue, the strategy is train the rogue, because good things will happen when you do it (like a out of mana/CD healer, or more often than not, a dead rogue).
Dodge is supposed to be our saving grace, yet even evasion itself is useless against the WOTLK melee classes, death knight and retribution paladin both have a ton of damage that ignore our evasion. You gave warriors 1234567 more ways to activate their overpower. And unless you want rogues to outmuscle plate armor, most of the time we are chasing a cloth/mail while a heavy plate like DK is hammering us from behind all game long, ignoring our dodge completely.
Lower Damage Than . . . Every DPS Class
Let's see, if I don't wear heavy resilience, I go down in 2-3 hits. If I do wear heavy resilience, every DPS class in full PVP gear does more damage than me. Blood / Shadowfrost DK? It is more like "do they outdamage me by 50% or 100%"?. Fury warriors? They actually kill healers if left to go 1v1 with them, we don't. Hunter/warlock/mage? Full damage from range that can't be stopped at all, vs a class that has to run for his life (or kited all game long)? Did I mention we are easier to CC than any other melee class? Warrior/DK/Feral Druid all have fear immunes. We have absolutely nothing.
No Unique Utility
Healing debuff and snare? Warrior/hunter's don't go down in a single global (or in the case of shaman/druid, it doesn't even cost them a full global). Stuns? What class doesn't have stun duration reduction, or stun damage reduction, or ability to break stuns on demand? That would be . . . rogues! And you took our signature ability, the kidney shot, which cost us a huge chunk of burst damage to use, and made it share DR with all other stuns. Oh yes, you gave paladins, the most popular healer in the game the ability to remove stuns on demand for anyone on his team. Expose armor? Used to be good against cloth/leather/mail, now you made it worthless against EVERY CLASS. With warriors getting an ability to remove invulnerability, where is our niche? Even retribution paladin's hammer of justice is a superior stun to kidney shot.
Suggested Changes:
1) Delete Sleight of Hand from subtlety (who the hell came up with this talent? Did they really think rogues needed improved feint to manage aggro?), replace it with nerves of steel, which clearly doesn't belong in a PVE tree. This is our anti-stun talent, it makes us in-line with all other classes. Move enveloping shadows to where nerves of steel is, it is a PVE talent that should be in a PVE tree.
2) Delete Filthy Tricks, and give us improved shadowstep which lowers the CD by 5/10 seconds.
3) Swap deadly brew and improved poisons, and buff improved poisons for PVE rogues. Every rogue PVP spec deserves deadly brew, it is our only defense when our poisons are gone in one global or less against any class. Make the cripple poison proc from deadly brew instant.
4) Add the interrupt effect back to deadly throw, or give it a root effect, this ability is so worthless in WOTLK I use it once every 20 arena matches. 50% snare for a couple of seconds at the cost of all of my combo points, I still won't catch up to anyone when I am snared myself!
5) Kidney shot needs to be special. It is our signature move, it should not share DR with any other stuns, because we are the class that relies most on stuns. Put cheap shot back on DR with other stuns, and give kidney shot some sort of special effect similar to warlock death coil's horror effect, so the only thing that breaks/affects it, is the PVP trinket. Rogue should have without any question, the best single stun in the game.
7) Hemo needs to make up its mind. Either it needs to be worth the damage per energy as a main attack (at least 125% weapon damage to be competitive, and sinister calling needs to be back to 10%), or it needs to bring a much more significant debuff (perhaps it can allow rogue bleed effects to crit/refresh, with a much longer duration / charge count?).
The one thing that concerns me more than anything else, is your lack of creativity with the rogue class in WOTLK. All other classes got something unique/innovative for PVP, while we are still playing CB/prep/mutilate, a spec that plays/feels very similar to CB/prep/hemo of classic WOW, a big step backward from shadowstep days of TBC!
Dismantle is as useful as warrior disarm, as every serious arena player has a weapon chain. Deadly brew was cool for a while until you nerfed mind numbing poison into the ground so now it feels exactly like wound/crippling days of WOW classic, when we didn't have shiv. Shadow dance not only has a longer cooldown than burst abilities from other classes, it is also much much more restrictive and you have zero CC protection during it, and you give up once again, a huge chunk of sustained damage for going that deep into subtlety. Can't you be a little more creative with our class? Hunger for blood was an amazing idea, giving a spec without prep a low CD counter to either magical or physical effects, but you took away the PVP portion completely instead of tweaking it. The "it is not meant for PVP" excuse is really lame, do we need two PVE DPS trees, is it really that overpowered to give hunger for blood a useful defensive effect? And I still don't know what is killing spree doing at 51 combat, a burst move in a sustained PVE tree? Why isn't this in the subtlety tree paired with hemo?
I guess back to my original question. Is that it? Is that all we going to get for 3.1? The rogue class is gifted with the most talented/creative players of any class, and we will not give up the love of our community regardless of your patches. But is it really that difficult to look at the arena rankings and reach the conclusion that those three classes need significant nerfs with their 30%/20%/20% presentation on SK-100? Where are the REAL nerfs for those classes in 3.1?
Do I Believe A Forum Post Will Do Anything?
Not really, but that is like saying you shouldn't bother voting because your vote probably won't do a thing. In all likelihood, Blizzard will constantly shuffle the deck so classes shift in power from patch to patch, giving people reason to reroll and old players to come back to play a class they gave up on. Still, sometimes it is a principle. Time is running out, so do your best!
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Imo once other classes retarded damage is brought down rogues will still just need a little more survivability
also this image needs to be posted some more
One day someone will create a device to detect IQ's within humans and the US government will nuke every retard in the world, and his offspring.
One day someone will create a device to detect IQ's within humans and the US government will nuke every retard in the world, and his offspring.
no it doesn't, we're sick of cleave, stop promoting cleave, get over cleave, nobody wants cleave, shut up
Having HoF remove stuns is much more ridiculous than KS and DF on seperate DRs...
It's not the change I would make but it's not totally uncalled for.
Having HoF remove stuns is much more ridiculous than KS and DF on seperate DRs...
It's not the change I would make but it's not totally uncalled for.
also, all teams should have paladins
i mean, matches should never last longer than 40 seconds anyway, that's just too long
anyone supporting on-demand stuns on separate DRs is either not thinking hard enough about the consequences, or a skilless cleavetard
get over it, find a new way to kill people that doesn't involve attacking them when they can't attack you for the whole match
also, all teams should have paladins
i mean, matches should never last longer than 40 seconds anyway, that's just too long
anyone supporting on-demand stuns on separate DRs is either not thinking hard enough about the consequences, or a skilless cleavetard
get over it, find a new way to kill people that doesn't involve attacking them when they can't attack you for the whole match
From a shadowdance perspective, you can get cheapshots off just as often as kidneys in most arena matches. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So I was just comparing cheapshot + DF + eviscerate with garrote/ambush + DF + KS and they aren't much different... I think I prefer cheap shot on it's own DR anyway for several reasons.
It's different for a mutilate rogue, especially in RMP as opposed to 2v2. I still don't think KS on it's own DR would be as gamebreaking for anyone as divine purpose is for rogues in either setting.
If you get a restealth off, you deserve a non-DR opener. If you kidney shot someone, there was no setup, you just used kidney shot and it shouldn't result in 10+ seconds of stuns with your teammate. Cheapshots are preventable.
Point taken, but if you consider kidney shot a positional attack (need to be behind target), it's not much easier to set up than a cheapshot. It really varies from class to class which stun is more preventable.
One of the stuns has to be on it's own DR and they each have their ups and downs in that regard. As a rogue who doesn't really prefer one way over the other, I find it hard to believe that there's a big difference in the cheese-factor. There are good ways to take advantage of either stun and when they made the change it had very little impact on my mage/rogue 2v2 team. Admittedly, I play weird and what you're saying might me more relevant to most rogues than what I'm saying.
no it doesn't, we're sick of cleave, stop promoting cleave, get over cleave, nobody wants cleave, shut up
either way YOU LOSE!
Rogues don't need a super stun to be "special" or "useful". They just need to be more elusive to damage and less easy to train all game like they were with ShS. However ShS survivability was TOO good. Honestly cheat death shoudln't exist, they should up rogues survivability/mobility, and in subtlety's case, damage as well (ShS is so weak right now without outside of the ShDance duration). Rogues have always been reliant on long cooldowns and honestly, it shoulda been changed a LONG time ago.
Noone likes it. Every other class is more consistent in their cooldowns. Intercept, Hex, Wyvern Sting, disengage, deterrence, etc. are all short cooldown basic utilities, all of rogues are large and have to be used sparingly which....is annoying.
Prep should be destroyed and rogues should be redesigned to depend less on long cooldowns. PLayers fighting cooldown spamming rogues hate prep. Rogues hate NEEDING prep. It's a bad ability and is only still in the game because rogues have been forced into it forever.
I know part of the reason cooldowns like Evasion/Vanish/sprint are on somewhat long cooldowns, and that's because they're powerful enough, unhindered (Ideal situations), to be that long. However, it's easy to screw those abilities up.
Evasion should be a 1 or 1 min CD with a 6-8 second duration. That way it doesn't last too long to be really really annoying, but is a re-usable defense mechanism like ice barrier/icebound fortitude/etc. Sprint should probably be 45 seconds and a very short duration like 4-5 seconds (sprinting rogues who use other cooldowns like cloak/vanish are very scary keep in mind).
Cloak should be 1 minute base again, 100% resist chance. Vanish should be redesigned honestly, the ability being on a shorter cooldown would be too powerful mostly in 2's, and MAYBE okay in other brackets since you can easily knock a rogue out, but in all fairness, if it was something like a 45-60 second cooldown with a limitation it could be perfectly balanced.
The thing I hate most about vanish is, without any sort of flare/bleed on your team, a cloak + vanish (that doesn't break) is a near gaurenteed escape and noone likes a perfect and easy to use escape mechanism. A CC oriented teammate (like mage, for instance) could easily stall long enough for the rogue to run across the map and eat/bandage out of LoS, and people would hate that.
I propose vanish be 45-60 seconds but instead of being a full escape mechanism, give you a short window for a re-opener or a less gaurenteed escape mechanism with cloak. I.E. let vanish keep you in combat and give you a 2-4 seconds of stealth to re-open and what not, perhaps with a speed boost or something so people don't just walk away annoyingly, so you have enough time to get sap chains/re-openers on targets but with small windows rather than hiding in stealth and going to reset fights too easily.
This would make timing it (read: skillful play) a bit better and prevent the rogue from being able to escape with Cloak + Vanish gaurenteed as if they want a true restealth they would have to escape/LoS and get OOC to do so. 2-4 second window is fair enough for both sides I think.
Also, make it not break from auto attacks and farting in their general direction, give it the damn 0.5-1 second immunity it deserves.
Certainly other tweaks should be made and I didn't really address their survivability but I'll leave that to others. I've just always hated rogue long cooldown dependency.
I know I just wasted my time because noone will care, and noone who can make the changes will read this, but whatever, vanish needs to be reworked to a middle ground that's balanced all the time instead of useless/too good depending on the situation (useless being the more common situation, tsk tsk)
For the record, I don't play my rogue anymore so I'm not biased towards them.
Also, ALL HAIL THE HOKAGE! (I genuinely enjoy Ming's Naruto roleplaying, makes these blogs so fun :P)
**** me.
**** me.
It's ok, baby. It was a good essay.
4 second in-combat vanish with speed increase for the duration (like the old imp vanish) is a good idea. It's frustrating because there are just so many good ideas like that... They're easy to think of if you have the right mind for it too. It's mind boggling to me that Blizzard does nothing about it. There have to be people at Blizzard throwing around these same kinds of ideas and getting ignored and it's just disheartening.
What you playing, mage? All good rogues have a mage alter ego inside them lol
Unless its a given that they are significantly going to nerf Ret damage and holy healing i can't understand why anybody would think they'd need this. The fact that it affects all of their teammates would make them the ultimate secondary healer class as well in 5v5, which would equate to free casting. How do you plan on preventing 2 healers that can't be interupted? You expect perfectly coordinated and timed CC's on both players? hoping both are on trinket CD, and can't dispel one another? Spell locking out/interupting one and CC'ing the other is possible now but with aura mastery and then bubble thats literally 20 seconds of free healing in many situations.
I just don't get why you'd support that unless you play a Pally or with one.
Unless its a given that they are significantly going to nerf Ret damage and holy healing i can't understand why anybody would think they'd need this. The fact that it affects all of their teammates would make them the ultimate secondary healer class as well in 5v5, which would equate to free casting. How do you plan on preventing 2 healers that can't be interupted? You expect perfectly coordinated and timed CC's on both players? hoping both are on trinket CD, and can't dispel one another? Spell locking out/interupting one and CC'ing the other is possible now but with aura mastery and then bubble thats literally 20 seconds of free healing in many situations.
I just don't get why you'd support that unless you play a Pally or with one.
Which every mages has.
onditional on him not having HoF, or you need a FoF proc, and even then a Pally can get out of the stun immediately and just cast again. It is far from a counterspell.
Decent mages, (I like to consider myself one of them, how foolish :P) already only disable 1/3 - 2/5 of the casts with a cs. Chances are, if you need a disable of the cast on the paladin, he's not the one being trained, so why would he need hof? Even if he HoFs out of df, every decent mage will just chain a sheep after that. Handling with auramastery as a mage against a paladin is really no problem. The real thread of the ability comes when timed well and 2 casters(or in case of 5s even more) on the enemy team are allowed to freecast. The way the game is designed at the moment forces paladins to bubble very often in 3vs3 situations because you can't afford to fakecast, or else your partner dies.
So CC's now have to be timed to counter aura mastery for fear of DR during aura mastery? I don't understand why you'd condone having to wait out aura mastery, and then a bubble, when the class is already the top healer and has the ability to make melee virtually unstoppable killing machines with HoF, and the rng of spellsteal and dispels as the only counter to it.
The class took major hits in 3.1, basically completely destroying 49/0/22 and 37/0/34 even more. These specs won't be vaible in 3.1. The main reason paladins are so popular at the moment is because of divine purpose, infinite mana in 2s via judgment of wise, and I'm not even sold on better survivability than other healers. 49/0/22 doesn't offer any CC outside of the 1 min HoJ making it more or less just a healbot. The problem is that right now, with DKs/Hunter etc. going nuts in dmg, CC is really not required anymore to kill anything or is just spammable in the case of hunter.
has the ability to make melee virtually unstoppable killing machines with HoF, and the rng of spellsteal and dispels as the only counter to it.
Really nobody, outside cat******* baddies, skills blessed hand or stoicism. Almost every composition has a way to dispell it. In 3.1 though I expect many paladins to have 60% dispell resitance on it.
Unless its a given that they are significantly going to nerf Ret damage and holy healing i can't understand why anybody would think they'd need this.
With the nerfs to divine plea and no judgement of the wise speccs, paladins will oom fairly quick. As 51/20/0 right now in a Shadowcleave setting, I'm oom after 3 minutes easily.
With the nerf to infusion of light, holypaladins won't outheal other healers (which I doubt they do at the moment, they just conserve mana better than other healers)
The fact that it affects all of their teammates would make them the ultimate secondary healer class as well in 5v5, which would equate to free casting.
It will be fairly strong in 5s, but than again lol5s.
You expect perfectly coordinated and timed CC's on both players? hoping both are on trinket CD, and can't dispel one another
Wouldn't that be beautiful?Welcome to s4 perfect played eurocomp.
I just don't get why you'd support that unless you play a Pally or with one.
I do play a pally yes. Moreover I play a mage in RMP and a priest. I'd like to consider myself unbiased, because I know how hard my other chars can rape pallies right now. You won't see Pallies as highly represented as they are right now once 3.1 hits the liveservers. They may be better in 5s now, but they were hit hard in 2s and 3s especially with the nerf to infusion of light, making them significantly more open to counters.
also lol eurocomp was not hard in the least
also lol eurocomp was not hard in the least
I'm not saying eurocomp was a hard comp to win games and get highratings but to rotate CC correctly and don't forget to deal dmg was near impossible to coordinate (hence why I said playing it perfectly)
Unrelated:
600 passive haste in 3.1 **** ye.
Edit: Also We could debate about Arc/fire being vaible with the new impact. I haven't thought about it seriously yet though.
I'll probably start DFing paladins earlier in the match, get them behind on heals with a double sheep, and always save the third sheep for aura mastery.
That ability is just too good all the time, otherwise, as a mage player myself......outside of freedom I almost feel bad for paladins.
They're still in GREAT shape right now, but with the nerfs coming + my proposed BoF nerf, they will need something like aura mastery TBH, though it should be for just themselves honestly because in 5v5 it will be broken.
Anywho, paladins get weaker as fights last longer. Paladins aren't really designed for long fights and we all know it. Without Bubble paladins would be bottom of the food chain, I'm sure we can all agree, and that 12 second immunity is more valuable when the fight lasts 45 seconds, but when the fight lasts 1.5-2 minutes it's FAR less valuable.
Also priests getting buffed and warlocks (paladins natural predator) in addition to the nerfs will put paladins in their place (hopefully not too badly, S2-S4 was aids for those poor guys).
That ability is just too good all the time, otherwise, as a mage player myself......outside of freedom I almost feel bad for paladins.
They're still in GREAT shape right now, but with the nerfs coming + my proposed BoF nerf, they will need something like aura mastery TBH, though it should be for just themselves honestly because in 5v5 it will be broken.
Anywho, paladins get weaker as fights last longer. Paladins aren't really designed for long fights and we all know it. Without Bubble paladins would be bottom of the food chain, I'm sure we can all agree, and that 12 second immunity is more valuable when the fight lasts 45 seconds, but when the fight lasts 1.5-2 minutes it's FAR less valuable.
Also priests getting buffed and warlocks (paladins natural predator) in addition to the nerfs will put paladins in their place (hopefully not too badly, S2-S4 was aids for those poor guys).
Grats, you've mastered deep throating Affix's dick. Now all you have to do is roll an overpowered class, get gladiator and pretend to be good.
You can maybe justify wasting time dueling if you're arena specced, so are they, and it is practical 1v1 situations, but I'm shocked by how much time people are wasting doing this stuff :X
It can be just as intense or more intense than arena though, because when the matchups are super close one mistake loses you the duel against a top opponent specced / geared to beat you.
Because getting shiny new pixels on your character instead is a much more productive thing to do right? I mean, its not like you're playing an online video game in the first place...
Because getting shiny new pixels on your character instead is a much more productive thing to do right? I mean, its not like you're playing an online video game in the first place...
edit: rereading my previous comment, I think 'wasting' was the wrong word. I don't think dueling is fun enough to justify jumping through hoops to do it on the TR, as I'd rather just play arenas with those people, not duel against them.
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