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by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at January 28, 2008, 1:27 am
After two and a half seasons of healbotting, many of the top paladins are finally building a retribution set. Season 3 gear finally has resilience (no idea why the retribution set was the only set without resilience for two full seasons) and considering many of the top slots for a healing paladin involves PVE pieces, and the PPM nature of seal of command screams for a PVE weapon slower than 3.6. It is actually not that that difficult to build a retribution set compared to say, a discipline priest building a shadow set.

While it will probably take a while before retribution paladins see serious play in 2v2 and 5v5, a retribution paladin is already more than capable of hitting 1st spot playing double melee. Serennias/Xecks's warrior/rogue/druid combo started the double melee nightmare for every warlock out there, and they managed to hit the top spot in BG9 without much trouble before the lack of double AR and Xecks's gear started to catch up to them. Warrior, retribution paladin and druid is simply a more versatile double melee comp against non-warlock teams. A paladin's cleanse and freedom helps a warrior so much more. And as much as I hate to say it, a retribution paladin's on-demand burst is as good as any rogue spec not named mutilate (and very few warrior/rogue/druid teams run mutilate rogue due to the lack of mobility and defensive cooldowns). +30% damage on demand is ridiculous for a class already with high burst potential, and with a druid healing, a paladin can pop his wings with impunity in most situations.

Without double AR it is very hard to justify taking a rogue over a paladin for this comp, his synergy with warrior is so much better. Not to mention judgment of justice is simply a death sentence against druids. What makes this comp strong is the high margin for error. With rogue/mage/priest you often only have one or two chances to land that shatter combo off CC rotations. With three very durable classes that can play the burst game as well as the outlast one (paladin can do most of his DPS as long as he can keep rank 1 seal of command up for less than 100 mana, which also happens to be undispellable, and he gets significant mana back when healed), you have a very potent line-up that also has the element of surprise against most teams.

Mounsifjr/Nick are probably as good as it gets when it comes to a druid/paladin duo, and their bold attempt definitely paid off with a 81 and 14 record to first spot. A CWOW team also uses the same comp in what many consider to be one of the strongest BGs in China and they went from a 2000ish team to top spot with a record of 32-2. Yes, it does work, and not too many teams can counter it when played correctly. With most of the top players already having full set of their primary healing gear, I think we will see a very big splash of retribution paladins for season 3. Clicker, the paladin from Inactive's CAPSLOCKCREW is now also playing retribution with warrior, paladin and restoration shaman. With heroism and windfury a retribution paladin's damage is out of this world, and they have a record of 37-11 and rated at 2200 for a spot on BG9's top 10. Although druid is probably still the stronger comp against most teams.

What does this mean for rogues? Between warrior/rogue/druid and warrior/ret paladin/druid(shaman), you have two very hard counters for warrior/lock/druid and rogue/lock/druid(priest) teams and I expect melee/lock/healer to take a hit. Warrior/rogue/druid is not going to beat warrior/ret paladin/druid, just swap to shield and get through the two evasions then nuke the rogue, going on the druid can be very effective as well with judgment of justice. We are probably stuck with RMP as it is still the rogue team with least hard counters. Even the dreaded hunter/druid/X teams are beatable if your priest plays it like a three DPS team, use his smite and DOTs on the hunter. The number of warrior/lock/druid teams should go down with the increase in popularity of double melee teams which is a good thing for RMP.

2.4 patch notes next week, can't wait! Arena has been really slow and with all three of my teams on top 20, it is just impossible to make progress playing 3-5 point games especially with rogue/AP POM mage. I really wish they can add a tracking tool for arena queues that lets you see how many teams playing are within 100 points of your ratings. It will probably make arena quite a bit more active if top teams can consistently find equal rating teams.

European 5v5 Tournament Update:

Avada's shadowstep rogue, felguard lock. water elemental mage, discipline priest and restoration druid team beat Nihilum's drain team 3-0. Nihilum will face XOM (ZOM)'s Showtime in loser bracket finals and I doubt Showtime will allow them to swap in a druid again. Hopefully it will be a rogue vs rogue grand final! Three of the five highest rated teams in Europe's strongest battlegroup plays rogue 3DPS, and I expect this line-up to be imported by American teams as well. It is simply devastating against 2345 and 2346 teams, and does well enough against most hunter variations. My BG's top team is already playing this comp with a blistering record of 81-5.  Once my team get our priest back we will be back on top five as well, playing shaman/druid instead of priest/druid(or shaman) is too risky without defensive dispels and we dropped to 8th spot this week.

I have always been fond of European food and clothing as I find them to be classier and more tasteful than American counterparts, and I am glad European rogue heroes brought us back into high level 5v5 competition.

You can find match videos from rogue POV here:

http://www.sk-gaming.com/file/5981

With ESL (sponsor of the highest paying WOW tournament so far in Dreamhack) starting online leagues for European players, the future of WOW PVP looks very bright for Europeans. Can Americans respond or will BG9 fade away like most other American E-Sports?
     
164 comments
Maldazzar
Maldazzar Jan 28, 2008 at 1:32 am
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Resto Shaman/Warrior/Ret Pally has a pretty good chance at beating RMP, I would assume Druids have it even easier
faction
faction Jan 28, 2008 at 1:57 am
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Maldazzar
Maldazzar Jan 28, 2008 at 2:00 am
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pretty much. start off on the mage, put pressure on either the mage or the rogue (cheat death pretty much destroys any gib the rogue strategy), then switch to the priest with full damage and cooldowns.

it sometimes takes a while to find a good opportunity to switch to the priest, but he dies in seconds

we also haven't played any really good teams (Cika lol), but the only counter we've run into is Warrior/Resto Shaman/Resto Druid
faction
faction Jan 28, 2008 at 2:59 am
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the few losses we've had to your comp are just me dying in like 3 seconds so yeah.  they're retarded and the paladin tries to kite instead of dpsing for most of the game though
Ecob
Ecob Jan 28, 2008 at 10:50 am
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hmmm, warrio goes on Shammy, and Druid and Ret pally put pressure on the druid, while your druid tries to keep up a CC rotation on the Warrior as long as possible, kinda complex but maybe it would work?
Godsmak
Godsmak Jan 28, 2008 at 11:57 am
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RMP vs WPS = Rogue and Mage smash the warrior, CC shaman and laugh at the pally.
ronmexicoz
ronmexicoz Jan 28, 2008 at 1:11 pm
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You, clearly, have not seen THE GREAT RONMEXICO GLORIOUS SAVIOUR OF SHAMENS
Godsmak
Godsmak Jan 28, 2008 at 4:17 pm
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True, I haven't played enough top shamans on BG9 to see anything spectacular from a shaman... I've seen rocket boots... yay
Inactive
Inactive Jan 28, 2008 at 1:54 am
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Ming
Ming Jan 28, 2008 at 1:59 am
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When your own teammate took a weaker variation of the comp to top 10 in BG9 with a 80% win rate, yes it did happen on 9, which is nothing special. And it will just be a matter of time before a rogue 3DPS team put 2345 and 2346 teams in their place in BG9. Rogue will be a stronger class than warriors in 5v5, just watch.
Inactive
Inactive Jan 28, 2008 at 3:03 am
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it was more of a joke, but keep saying that ming. I believe the warrior variation is much better off than the rogue on, TBH. But whatever makes you happy :)
Inactive
Inactive Jan 28, 2008 at 3:22 am
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and just because helldridge/crysalid/cenz/errelnoh/myself played the comp and did well with it proves nothing what so ever. We played no good teams, other than CBE for like 4-5 games.
Warrior is superior to rogue in that set up vs the majority of teams. Hamstring multiple targets, PH, instant swap ability with an on demand healing debuff, 1300 HP to all group members, AE Fear, etc.
Where as with the rogue comp, you can't swap off a target and have the instant healing debuff like you can with a warrior, so you are forced to tunnel vision scrub one target the entire game - what happens if the target you attack line of sights your casters - your dps is garbage and your rogue will get CC'd healing debuff will fall and it'll take a bit of time before you can get wound back up there. You also gain a 10 second CC that is over excessive and shares DR with cyclone.

Also, I think a warrior being a viable target is a good thing for this comp because you want to keep pressure off your casters. A rogue is not a viable target and will remain untouched because cheat death, prep, etc.

Wound/MS have their strengths and weaknesses.
MS: Instant application, more difficult to maintain. Can be removed for some time by dodge/parry. Removed by BOP. Removed easier by CC.
Wound: Harder to apply the full debuff, much easier to maintain. Cannot be removed by dodge/parry. Cannot be removed by BOP. Maintainable even through CC because all you have to do is shiv and you have no RNG factor when applying wound again, and I think it last 14 seconds?

I'm sure there's more, got to go to onto that but I wrote it really quick and imma go to bed now.
SPSTM2
SPSTM2 Jan 28, 2008 at 3:32 am
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12, and it's not that amazing T_T. Mortal strike after intercept also has 0 rng, and intercept has the least RNG possible (only resist can fail you)

=X we didn't get to play you with errelnoh, only with zolz =/ I was pretty drunk the first few games. Sad how the last match ended, but it seems that scrub strats are best.
Godsmak
Godsmak Jan 28, 2008 at 12:00 pm
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Ming's a idiot thinking Rogue will be more viable in 5s compared to a warrior.

Why does this guy always try to predict things. Man he's bad...
Avatara
Avatara Jan 28, 2008 at 12:18 pm
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Errelnoh
Errelnoh Jan 28, 2008 at 12:30 pm
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I'm not saying ming is right, but I tend to think there's some pretty serious advantages to rogue over warrior in the druid/priest setup.  I'd like to get some experience with it, but I could see the rogue being viable.
Godsmak
Godsmak Jan 28, 2008 at 4:20 pm
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"SEAL-FATE HEMO WILL BE THE BEST SPEC OMG KEKE I HAVE AN ASIAN GF THAT LOOKS LIKE A BOY!"
-Ming, one of many failed predictions of 08
Inactive
Inactive Jan 28, 2008 at 8:33 pm
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not quite sure who you are SPSTM2, so sorry. We were playing to get Zolz his 10 games in with Cenz because Clicker wasn't present. Also, Cenz needed points for the week so yeah.

Mortal Strike with intercept has no RNG, yes. But when a rogue pops evasion and you're snared or a hunter pops detereance you can't maintain your healing debuff. Or if you get a fluke dodge/parry and then get CC/Disarmed a few second before the debuff disappears you can keep MS off for a pretty long time.

And Zach, I never said the rogue isn't viable at all. I simply said vs a majority of teams that are actually good a warrior is superior when compared to a rogue.
Tiruak
Tiruak Jan 28, 2008 at 2:09 am
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I play shaman/priest/rogueSS/FMage/lock SL/SL

We seem to have some problems with teams that play pally/priest/war/lock/hunter
From what I see we are probably trying the wrong strat, but can seem to find something that works everytime. If we dont press the priest, we get burned very soon into the fight... not sure on what to do, will take some advice if anyone mind to share opinions.
Ming
Ming Jan 28, 2008 at 2:10 am
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Watch the video which happens to be this match-up :-D
Tiruak
Tiruak Jan 28, 2008 at 2:14 am
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I'm downloading it...

I just feel a bit frustrated, as a mage, fight hunters on 5s, it ***** me up so good that I feel like smashing the keyboard sometimes =)
Inactive
Inactive Jan 28, 2008 at 3:04 am
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that's a terrible example of "what happens to this line up". The players are garbage, this is a tournament setting there are no excuses for sucking. Once again, those teams are trash. Maybe in a few months they'll compare to BG9 but till then.
KillianzEU
KillianzEU Jan 28, 2008 at 5:44 am
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We'll see as soon as Blizzard announces another international tournament. Cyclone doesn't have as much good teams as BG9, but our players aren't garbage.
Buldoz
Buldoz Jan 28, 2008 at 6:11 am
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If you have three active good 5v5 teams that's more than BG9 already.

BG9 is first in the world in point-selling teams though.
KillianzEU
KillianzEU Jan 28, 2008 at 6:12 am
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Oh and in case you didn't get it yet Inactive. You're not more than a scrub warrior only playing 5on5s, cause it's easiest for warriors. Try to get some 2.3k 2on2 and 3on3 teams going, in which your role as a warrior is more difficult than just keeping MS up on the target and getting dispelled out of every **** without even having to spellreflect sheeps etc.
depz
depz Jan 28, 2008 at 6:22 am
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Pretty sure he's been 2400 in 2's and 3's as well (in s2)
Accents595
Accents595 Jan 28, 2008 at 6:32 am
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@Inactive

I am really just wondering, you really think you guys can take down most of the worlds top 5v5's? serious question :0
ronmexicoz
ronmexicoz Jan 28, 2008 at 6:46 am
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gies warrirs hav it reel tuff in 2s nd 3s maybe if inactiv wasnt such as rub he could do gud in those brackets
BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Jan 28, 2008 at 8:41 am
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Yea man 5v5 is for noobs, true skilled players play warrior/druid and warrior/druid/x
clickertich
clickertich Jan 28, 2008 at 11:12 am
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@killianzeu: inactive and i played 3 2v2 games against warlock,priest in season 2. we owned them because we are superior players. the queue times were over 8 minutes each and he said "i am not queuing 2v2 again." it's a ****ty bracket. his 3v3 with crysalid and helldridge hit first at 2580 and held it for the two weeks before s2 ended. we've leveled multiple teams to 2300 to point sell using a ****ty group of war,pal,elesham. you're a euroscumbag that got angry and trolled
Godsmak
Godsmak Jan 28, 2008 at 12:03 pm
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All I know is Helldridge is a beast, so yeah I am sure he had a top 3v3 team.
EVERYTHING
EVERYTHING Jan 28, 2008 at 4:37 pm
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@KillanzEU

"your role as a warrior is more difficult than just keeping MS up on the
target and getting dispelled out of every **** without even having to
spellreflect sheeps etc."

You must have never played with/against any good warriors.
Inactive
Inactive Jan 28, 2008 at 7:01 pm
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Europe's perception of WoW Arena is, well, sad. I don't have to defend myself, nice job getting stompT and trolled though KillanzEU

"@Inactive



I am really just wondering, you really think you guys can take down most of the worlds top 5v5's? serious question :0"

No I'd be offering money/openly **** talking if I wasn't confident. (sorry, didn't mean to come off as it did) but yeah, I do.
Buldoz
Buldoz Jan 28, 2008 at 7:04 pm
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Keep in mind Europe (France) owns Blizzard.
ronmexicoz
ronmexicoz Jan 28, 2008 at 7:23 pm
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Keep in mind that the U.S. (U.S.) can destroy France in the morning and still have time to watch afternoon football.
ronmexicoz
ronmexicoz Jan 28, 2008 at 7:24 pm
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Keep in mind that the U.S. (U.S.) can destroy France in the morning and still have time to watch afternoon football.
Inactive
Inactive Jan 28, 2008 at 8:38 pm
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How is the location of the company that owns Blizzard even relevant Buldoz? You provide non existent arguments and pretty much represent a huge chunk of the population that are ignorant sheeps that think statistical data proves everything.
Mathia
Mathia Jan 28, 2008 at 8:41 pm
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teekala
teekala Jan 28, 2008 at 2:13 am
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check out the shadowstep over that flare in the last game :P
SPSTM2
SPSTM2 Jan 28, 2008 at 3:32 am
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This isn't hard, what are you getting at?
teekala
teekala Jan 28, 2008 at 4:05 am
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i suppose you didnt watch the vid

AK is camping in the starting room of ruins and waiting for nihilum to burn their perceptions. Nihilum flares the entrance(blocking the rogues way out) while their lock is staying behind. Then AK's rogue shadowsteps to nihilums paladin who is standing just on the flares edge and gets the opener on the lock.
SPSTM2
SPSTM2 Jan 28, 2008 at 7:56 am
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No, saw that. Was neat but, it's doable by any rogue that has the ping/computer to do it so that you can judge the flare accurately.
Tiruak
Tiruak Jan 28, 2008 at 2:23 am
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Wow, the european league seems like a very good thing. I'm personally happy to see that blizzard is providing a "special" server for teams to compete, WITHOUT any pve items interference. Everyone compete with same items. That's what we need around here.
Brilliance
Brilliance Jan 28, 2008 at 2:24 am
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As a holy paladin I ran with a warr/ret setup to 1900 without too much trouble back during season 2. Unfortunately the combination functions better with any other healer. The great aspect of the matrix is more than a few on-demand interrupts that give healers nightmares while still allowing for heavy burst on the DPS target. Fear, hammer, cyclone, repentance... there's more than enough ways to shut people out with this combination.
Agares
Agares Jan 28, 2008 at 2:27 am
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just because warrior/rogue/druid has 1 counter that is really rare doesnt mean that rogues can only play rmp, lol.


edit:

I have always been fond of European food and clothing as I find
them to be classier and more tasteful than American counterparts, and I
am glad European rogue heroes brought us back into high level 5v5
competition.

jesus christ bandwagon more
zyZ-
zyZ- Jan 28, 2008 at 2:36 am
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war/shaman/pala counters war/rogue/druid too, but it's not as brutal
BurchaQ
BurchaQ Jan 28, 2008 at 9:48 am
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Actually no, it doesn't counter AT ALL.
wisdomcube
wisdomcube Jan 28, 2008 at 4:07 pm
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actually it does....REALLY badly just ask that one rogue...name starts with an L? Idk hes on bg9 ming has talked about him before
BurchaQ
BurchaQ Jan 28, 2008 at 4:31 pm
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I should remain happy that if I ever play Warrior/Paladin/Shaman I will never lose to Warrior/Rogue/Druid, but the other way around it will be at most 40/60, then.

I don't understand how you can be so sure it is a counter. Maybe the druid in question needs to l2cc more. Seriously through, I think it is very superficial to say that W/P/S counters somehow W/R/D. Don't confuse being a counter with "being able to win".
Karthera
Karthera Jan 28, 2008 at 2:27 am
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By next week do you mean sometime between mon-fri or the week after?
Renew
Renew Jan 28, 2008 at 2:48 am
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The article "2.4 details next week" here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=3887.0 was written by someone without reading comprehension.

We have information in the works, but I'd caution people that it's not
going to be today or even Monday, but we have plans and are working to
put things together that will hopefully make the wait worthwhile.

I'd
also caution people about getting their expectations up in regard to
"sweeping class changes". Again, we have many things in the works and a
definite plan of action that we will share with you all more as we
progress.

As always, I'll remind people that if we don't post
patch notes, they aren't the real deal. We create them, we post them,
we make them reality. Don't supplant someone's fantasy patch notes for
the real ones in your heads. It will only end in tears on so many
fronts.

Nowhere in this official post does it say 2.4 notes next week.
Kintt
Kintt Jan 28, 2008 at 2:30 am
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The title of this article should be, the incredible Warrior/Druid synergy carries another class to the top of the 3v3 bracket!
Raphiron1
Raphiron1 Jan 28, 2008 at 2:36 am
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Indeed.
Thinking about it, is there isn't any class you can't match together with a druid and a warrior in 3v3 and reach top 10? Priest, paladin, shaman, mage, warlock, hunter and rogue have all been done.
BurchaQ
BurchaQ Jan 28, 2008 at 3:48 am
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Kintt I am your fan. I am also playing a druid, but still your fan!
schmity
schmity Jan 28, 2008 at 9:59 am
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Just like great warrior/druid synergy carried your shaman to the top of 3s?  Amirite?
Kintt
Kintt Jan 28, 2008 at 10:21 am
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Nope that was GC's incredible teachings.
Barrelroll
Barrelroll Jan 28, 2008 at 11:15 pm
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except for ret paladin will outdamage the warrior in a heartbeat, the warrior is just there to keep up ms and snares.
Kintt
Kintt Jan 28, 2008 at 11:30 pm
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Barrelroll
Barrelroll Jan 29, 2008 at 12:30 pm
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yeah, don't get it twisted, the war/druid synergy is definitely waaaay too powerful atm, and the ret paladin basically nullifies the only issues that the two have together. The burst coupled with the very large mana pool (spiritual attunement hots is amazing), the only way you should lose against any team is if you screw up.
arrch
arrch Jan 28, 2008 at 2:32 am
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ameri**** ain't got **** on europe.
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