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 by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at August 4, 2009, 2:36 am
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Rogue Is The Best Class Blizzard Ever Designed, Keep It Unique!
The more I played Street Fighter 4 on PC this weekend, the more I recognized this. One of the best part I like about SF4 over old versions is the dual resource system, where you build up one meter with offensive abilities, and the other meter by taking damage and "parrying" hits. The result is you almost always have resources to make decisions. And even on a keyboard, chaining together combos, the equivalent of stunlocks is a lot of fun.
Rogue is the only class in WOW with a dual resource system (except possibly DKs). Energy/combo point is just a great design, and once you factor in a barrage of cooldown abilities, you have a lot of resources for decision making. While feral druid and retribution paladins can pull off simple stunlocks, rogue can pull off much more complex combos with cheap shot, kidney shot, gouge, blind, sap (and garrote silence vs casters), stringing together a big stunlock . . . it is just incredibly satisfying.
Nerfing important CCs we have such as the kidney shot and giving us more passive damage reduction to compensate for it? No thanks, I rather be a ninja than a swashbuckler. And with resilience going up next patch, survivability really is not an issue. I am glad Blizzard agreed on this. At 900 resilience, I dropped 3/3 deadened nerves for focused attacks and haven't noticed a thing. The burst that drops me in 3-4 globals would have dropped most other classes. The only thing I can ask for is nerves of steel on a higher tier to reduce damage taken during stuns. Maybe 30% at tier 2 would be too good, 20% is more than enough.
Potential Vanish Fix But No Love For Cloak/Subtlety
Again this is something WOM and the rogue community suggested since the beginning, a simple 1-second immunity on vanish to prevent sever lag getting you out of stealth! I am glad blue finally agreed to this, but unfortunately they see no real reason to improve cloak of shadows (still 10% chance to fail, more RNG) and subtlety (no love for hemo).
There have been so many great suggestions about improving hemo/subtlety over the past a few months, and it is quite disheartening that rogues will have to play 41/5/25 in most of our comps for another season. Some of my suggestions were:
1) Make it a pure DPS debuff. Double or even triple the number of charges / duration, so it can be used as a worthwhile raid/PVP debuff, add a 10-second cooldown to keep it balanced for raids.
OR
2) Create strong synergy with DOTs/ghostly strike. Allow ghostly strike to instantly consume all of hemo's charges for a high damage-per-energy special, allow hemo charges to work with bleed effects and allow them to crit (hence creating an amazing synergy with 3.2 honor among thieves giving combo points from crits on period attacks, aka DOTs). Will probably have to increase the number of charges by 50%. The related talents should be deep in the subtlety tree to prevent mutilate rogues from getting them.
OR
3) Add a physical snare to allow double wound for subtlety specs. Enough said, one of the biggest weaknesses of deep subtlety vs mutilate is lack of double wound. This will help a lot.
No News Is Good News For Fan Of Knives
We are among the very finest in PVE DPS (both single target and AOE), and we have a fantastic array of comp choices (three different comps at 3000 in addition to RMP) in the tournament 3v3 bracket. Will S6 hurt us with higher defensive stats? Sure but once we obtain S7 weapons / PVE equivalent pieces, we should be fine.
And while I believe fan of knives is very overrated against casters (I actually feel it counters cleave teams a lot better than casters), I am glad Blizzard didn't mention this niche spec in the interview. Reckful-kun's 5/54/12 is a lot of fun to play, I hope it stays alive at least until Blizzard fix subtlety.
Will You Trade Your Iphone For Google Voice?
I had a chance to see the Google Voice beta in action today, and I have to say it will be one of the greatest innovations of the decade (other than World of Warcraft, of course). While the prospect of giving Google access to even more information (it already has my email and RSS feeds) can be disturbing, the ability to combine all of your phones into one number coupled with free long distance calls, free text message, voice mail to text transcribing (the quality is simply amazing, even for someone like me who has quite a bit of accent), more call routing/blocking/handling features than you can ever want, it is just too good. I will be on board the second they allow me to use my current number.
Of course, Apple is very scared of this product and not only they booted Google's CEO from their board, they are also blocking Google Voice on Iphone. It is a shame, because the Iphone itself is probably the single most valuable gadget today. I really hope FCC can sort this out so the consumer can have the best of both worlds.
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BLiTZ Aug 4, 2009 at 2:41 am
+4 votes
Vanish finally being fixed after how many years? Thank FoKing God.
Riddler Aug 4, 2009 at 2:56 am
+3 votes
lololol blizzard saying that they will fix something in the forums doesnt actually mean they will really do it in game.
Lesane Aug 4, 2009 at 6:24 am
+1 votes
At least they admitted that it's ****** up now. They used to just come in and say that it was working as intended and that rogues were exaggerating the amount of times it failed (on EU forums at least).
Kanelol Aug 4, 2009 at 5:25 pm
+1 votes
They didn't say they were gonna fix it. They acknowledged that something was wrong, but also said that if it wasn't broken it would be OP. So basically, broken = fair.
Realtalk Aug 4, 2009 at 2:49 am
+11 votes
"while I believe fan of knives is very overrated against casters"
cause your not the caster getting slowed, mind numbed, MS'd, and literally not being able to cast a single spell
cause your not the caster getting slowed, mind numbed, MS'd, and literally not being able to cast a single spell
enqi Aug 4, 2009 at 2:50 am
+1 votes
I think you forgot the very disturbing damage of a 2.6 weapon, sir!
CongoBongo Aug 4, 2009 at 3:07 am
+1 votes
i can't imagine playing a fighting game with a keyboard, i didn't think it was even possible. Do you macro dragon punches? why not buy a joystick?
windrunner Aug 4, 2009 at 8:09 am
+0 votes
just because he's playing on pc doesn't mean he's using a keyboard
Rioter Aug 4, 2009 at 9:43 am
+1 votes
"And even on a keyboard, chaining together combos, the equivalent of stunlocks is a lot of fun."
I get the impression he is.
I get the impression he is.
Moogz Aug 4, 2009 at 8:51 am
+3 votes
DanKiwi said
rogue physical snare?
even if it was 50%....no thanks
even if it was 50%....no thanks
Sup ridiculous proc rate..CLEANSE WOUND, WOUND BACK, CLEANSE WOUND? WOUND BACK
Gone are the days when rogues had to shiv
Talos Aug 4, 2009 at 10:19 am
+1 votes
Wtf are you on about Zing?
Abolish poison/cleansing totem do jack ****, druids/shamans only apply/drop them in the slight hope they'll get lucky and cleanse wound just as a hot ticks for the extra healing. if a rogue is attacking a target, poisons are almost always on that target.
All they are useful for is clearing the wound/crip after the rogue is peeled/cc'd etc.
Abolish disease/cleansing totemis is a little more useful, since diseases are applied nowhere near the rate that poisons are.
Id like to see a removal of the RNG component to all dispelling/purging, abolish poison/disease included.
Abolish poison/cleansing totem do jack ****, druids/shamans only apply/drop them in the slight hope they'll get lucky and cleanse wound just as a hot ticks for the extra healing. if a rogue is attacking a target, poisons are almost always on that target.
All they are useful for is clearing the wound/crip after the rogue is peeled/cc'd etc.
Abolish disease/cleansing totemis is a little more useful, since diseases are applied nowhere near the rate that poisons are.
Id like to see a removal of the RNG component to all dispelling/purging, abolish poison/disease included.
Zing Aug 4, 2009 at 10:34 am
-2 votes
I disagree. But I'm sure it's pretty hard to be unbias from a druid point of view. Your problem seems to be that you feel that you're entitled to remove poisons when the rogue is on top of you. It's for after you have peeled the Rogue. Healing is already far too powerful, if abolish and/or PC totem were any better or wound was any worse then things would shift completely back to BC where druid's run circles around rogues like they don't exist.
Talos Aug 4, 2009 at 10:46 am
+2 votes
I play all 4 healers, and a few dps classes on the side. Abolish poison (and cleanse totem, same mechanic) are both almost completely useless while the rogue is on the target (not counting RNG dispell/hot ticks).
Whether or not this is a good thing is debatable, but there is no debating that in the current state of the game, a druid casting abolish poison on himself while the rogue remains on the target is mostly useless, as the poisons reapply less than half a second after they have stripped.
The game is not balanced around 2v2, and in 3v3, healing is nowhere near too powerful. If anything, stuns are far too powerful. Perhaps if healers didnt spend alot of their time in stuns/cc/blanket silences, then sure, healing would be too powerful. But as it stands now, the plethora of CC available to many comps (hi rmp/rls/wld) and extreme consistent damage of most other comps that lack CC (hi cleave/DkLD) means for healing to be anyway useful, it needs to stay at least as strong as it currently is.
People should have to work hard for a kill. It should be satisfying, and require some co-ordination and skill to pull off. Bursting down a target in a counterspell (or cleaving a target without any cc/swaps) is not skillful, and dumbs down an already stupid game.
TLDR: The dispell/abolish (both offensive and defensive) system in this game needs some serious dev attention.
Whether or not this is a good thing is debatable, but there is no debating that in the current state of the game, a druid casting abolish poison on himself while the rogue remains on the target is mostly useless, as the poisons reapply less than half a second after they have stripped.
The game is not balanced around 2v2, and in 3v3, healing is nowhere near too powerful. If anything, stuns are far too powerful. Perhaps if healers didnt spend alot of their time in stuns/cc/blanket silences, then sure, healing would be too powerful. But as it stands now, the plethora of CC available to many comps (hi rmp/rls/wld) and extreme consistent damage of most other comps that lack CC (hi cleave/DkLD) means for healing to be anyway useful, it needs to stay at least as strong as it currently is.
People should have to work hard for a kill. It should be satisfying, and require some co-ordination and skill to pull off. Bursting down a target in a counterspell (or cleaving a target without any cc/swaps) is not skillful, and dumbs down an already stupid game.
TLDR: The dispell/abolish (both offensive and defensive) system in this game needs some serious dev attention.
Zing Aug 4, 2009 at 12:43 pm
+1 votes
Uh yeah, that's called a perfect system? It's a flawless middle
ground. If a rogue is stuck on a target, poisons should be up, if the
rogue gets peeled, you can cure them without any resistance chance.
There's no conceivably better way to balance it.
My point exactly. It works exactly how it should, when the rogue is
on you, it works, he doesn't just become useless, when he gets peeled
or switches provided you have abolish off you lose your poisons much
earlier then other classes would. Like I said, you feel you're entitled
to lose the poisons while the rogue is hitting you, which isn't, and
shouldn't be the case.
The way healing has scaled in Wrath is such that most healers CAN and
do heal through healing reductions with ease. Disc Priests are still
doing amazingly and they don't have a poison-removal at all.
ground. If a rogue is stuck on a target, poisons should be up, if the
rogue gets peeled, you can cure them without any resistance chance.
There's no conceivably better way to balance it.
My point exactly. It works exactly how it should, when the rogue is
on you, it works, he doesn't just become useless, when he gets peeled
or switches provided you have abolish off you lose your poisons much
earlier then other classes would. Like I said, you feel you're entitled
to lose the poisons while the rogue is hitting you, which isn't, and
shouldn't be the case.
The way healing has scaled in Wrath is such that most healers CAN and
do heal through healing reductions with ease. Disc Priests are still
doing amazingly and they don't have a poison-removal at all.
Talos Aug 4, 2009 at 8:25 pm
+1 votes
If you reread my post zing, i never commented on whether or not a druid having poisons on is a good or bad idea. I only commented on the notion that poison cleanse was somehow keeping poisons off a target the rogue is attacking, which is completely deluded and never happens.
And btw, the reason disc priests (and pallys to a lesser extent) keep up with MS is because they use absorb effects (which negate MS effects, and are superior to healing anyway) as a large portion of their healing. Druids keep up because their raw healing power is higher than the other healers (although, since they lack absorb effects, and their healing takes a while to "build up" on a target, you could potentially argue this is necessary). Shamans dont keep up at all (at least untill next patch?)
Also, a rogue on a target is never useless. Taking damage while lacking control of your character is one of the more stupid mechanics in this game, and rogues are the king of it.
And btw, the reason disc priests (and pallys to a lesser extent) keep up with MS is because they use absorb effects (which negate MS effects, and are superior to healing anyway) as a large portion of their healing. Druids keep up because their raw healing power is higher than the other healers (although, since they lack absorb effects, and their healing takes a while to "build up" on a target, you could potentially argue this is necessary). Shamans dont keep up at all (at least untill next patch?)
Also, a rogue on a target is never useless. Taking damage while lacking control of your character is one of the more stupid mechanics in this game, and rogues are the king of it.
Tosan Aug 4, 2009 at 11:45 am
+1 votes
All they are useful for is clearing the wound/crip after the rogue is peeled/cc'd etc.
Uh yeah, that's called a perfect system? It's a flawless middle ground. If a rogue is stuck on a target, poisons should be up, if the rogue gets peeled, you can cure them without any resistance chance.
There's no conceivably better way to balance it.
Uh yeah, that's called a perfect system? It's a flawless middle ground. If a rogue is stuck on a target, poisons should be up, if the rogue gets peeled, you can cure them without any resistance chance.
There's no conceivably better way to balance it.
Moogz Aug 4, 2009 at 1:19 pm
+1 votes
Honestly i wouldn't be as fussed with the ultra high proc rate if it wasnt doing an assload of armour bypassing damage, its like a mini non crit SoB for rogues (it adds like 1000? damage to a double proc on a muti)
Shizbam Aug 4, 2009 at 5:11 pm
+1 votes
god forbid the MS or snare you don't have to think about to put up falls off. I mean warr who get their MS dodged by a mage or parried by a tree druid from behind feel your pain.
nzgs Aug 5, 2009 at 1:29 am
+0 votes
What a stupid comment. You cannot kite a warrior without repeated snares or CC. Kiting a rogue is trivial. If you want rogues to have the same vulnerabilities as warriors then consider giving mut rogues a 15s shadowstep.
Rogues are fine, even blizzard in their infinite cluelessness realise this. As Tosan states, if a rogue is on a target you are not intended to remove his poisons and escape by brute force. You are intended to get peels and then remove poisons in a global or two, whereas in the past it could take much longer to completely remove wound. Every class has some capability to peel nowadays, so there is no excuse.
Rogues are fine, even blizzard in their infinite cluelessness realise this. As Tosan states, if a rogue is on a target you are not intended to remove his poisons and escape by brute force. You are intended to get peels and then remove poisons in a global or two, whereas in the past it could take much longer to completely remove wound. Every class has some capability to peel nowadays, so there is no excuse.
Talos Aug 5, 2009 at 12:00 pm
+1 votes
Trivial? Really?
Maybe if the rogue forgets to use his/her KS, vanish CS, shiv, gouge, cloak and sprint.
God forbid the rogues teammate actually help them stick on the target (hi frostnovas/more stuns/dispells etc etc)
Kiting a warrior is FAR easier than kiting a rogue. A simple root (entangle, frost nova etc) will do the trick. Warriors cant cloak/stun on demand to avoid that. The best they can do is sit and wait in Dstance hoping to land a reflect on the next cc comin their way.
Honestly, how often do you see a rogue get kited for any length of time in arena in say, a PMR setup? Im really curious. IMO, only a frostmage can pull it off, but these days, with 50000 novas + blink, a frostmage can kite just about anything.
Maybe if the rogue forgets to use his/her KS, vanish CS, shiv, gouge, cloak and sprint.
God forbid the rogues teammate actually help them stick on the target (hi frostnovas/more stuns/dispells etc etc)
Kiting a warrior is FAR easier than kiting a rogue. A simple root (entangle, frost nova etc) will do the trick. Warriors cant cloak/stun on demand to avoid that. The best they can do is sit and wait in Dstance hoping to land a reflect on the next cc comin their way.
Honestly, how often do you see a rogue get kited for any length of time in arena in say, a PMR setup? Im really curious. IMO, only a frostmage can pull it off, but these days, with 50000 novas + blink, a frostmage can kite just about anything.
Tosan Aug 4, 2009 at 5:46 pm
+1 votes
Moogz said
Honestly i wouldn't be as fussed with the ultra high proc rate if it wasnt doing an assload of armour bypassing damage, its like a mini non crit SoB for rogues (it adds like 1000? damage to a double proc on a muti)
Yeah they're a pain to deal with early game against RMP, but thats not the rogue classes fault, it's moreso the synergy of the 3 classes all having alot of CC/offensive utility. Individually none of those classes are overpowered I'm sure most agree (though priests certainly were at the start of the season!).
If you nerfed rogues armor bypassing wound damage, they'd be god awful at killing plate targets like back in the day, and it's not fun to pound a warrior with a shield/dk/tree form druid/etc. and barely put a dent.
@Shizbam: Apples to oranges, mister. Warriors and rogues are not to be compared, as they're both strong/weak in their own rights. You cannot say rogues are just flat out better than warriors, that would be ignorant.
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