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 by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at November 3, 2007, 2:15 am
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I was on PTR and fought Jasi's 12700 HP, 410 resilience discipline priest with the new focused will talent, and I could go 50-50 with him with just one AR, pretty much a guaranteed win if I use both AR's. I had one of my characters specced CB/hemo, and I hemo crit him for 1475 when he went below 35%. I removed ghostly strike from my riposte/hemo macro and it feels so much cleaner. I will probably /castrandom ghostly strike with evasion. 5 energy over hemo for 15% dodge for 7 seconds is still a pretty good deal, although some will probably drop it completely. Then again lower tier subtlety is really weak, I think I still rather have ghostly/evasion macro over 1 point in camou.
Let's take a look at season 3 weapons, hemo vs 19/42 sinister strike vs 41/20 mutilate vs 30/0/31 backstab at 1500 AP:
Mutilate (Poisoned): 22.40
Backstab: 21.12
Hemo: 20.55
Sinister Strike: 18.16
Hemo with 2.8 weapons will start to approach mutilate's damage per energy, especially at extreme AP levels. With just 1500 AP, Syphon of the Nathrezim, you get 21.76 damage per energy, which is quite ridiculous. In fact, with just S3 weapons, mutilate only has a 9% damage per energy advantage over hemo. It is pretty crazy stuff.
For people who complain AR/prep make other specs obsolete, I would much rather have ONE dominant spec than two mediocre specs. Arm warrior, holy paladin, WE mage, SL/SL warlock, restoration druid, and we can finally add AR/prep rogue to that list.
The golden age of the rogue class, here we come! I just sincerely hope there is no further change to the rogue class, no news is good news at this point. We are absolutely loaded going into season 3.
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antirogue Nov 3, 2007 at 7:13 pm
+1 votes
Ming, I'm really curious what you think the major defaults of the going with Assasin over Combat are? I mean sure imp sprint, AR,  and mace stuns are nice but is it really worth all the things you lose in Assasin tree? There just seems like so much that is nice about assasin. More damage, tons more combo points, CB, crit, murder, run speed etc. I would really like to see you spend some more time testing a build simular to this on test 21/0/40 is what i'm using live but on test I would move some points out of SC to FF and CR. The burst on this build is so nice. And you are always a bit faster than everyone else like a rogue should be. Hate to waste a sprint when someone is just 1 foot out of range.
I believe that AR/prep is going to be best for 5's however I'm considering going more like 25/0/35 for 2's and 3's.Â
I'm curious what you think and would love to see you put some time into testing that build
I believe that AR/prep is going to be best for 5's however I'm considering going more like 25/0/35 for 2's and 3's.Â
I'm curious what you think and would love to see you put some time into testing that build
Late Nov 4, 2007 at 2:36 am
+1 votes
its because ar-prep has the highest white damage in the game maybe?
on fully resilienced targets, lethality is a 2.7% increase in overall damage?
FF is nothing for mobility compared to double sprint.
AR>CB if you arent a tunnel-visioned idiot who cant keep track of CCs on the field.
Tons more combo points is an overstatement.
Malice lethality
ruth/relentless
CB SF? Id honestly rather put the points in 5/5 precision even if I wasnt getting dw spec.
on fully resilienced targets, lethality is a 2.7% increase in overall damage?
FF is nothing for mobility compared to double sprint.
AR>CB if you arent a tunnel-visioned idiot who cant keep track of CCs on the field.
Tons more combo points is an overstatement.
Malice lethality
ruth/relentless
CB SF? Id honestly rather put the points in 5/5 precision even if I wasnt getting dw spec.
Raptoreyes Nov 3, 2007 at 3:21 am
+6 votes
Joliiz you greatly underestimate Ming's ability to ignore/cheer on horrible changes, so long as they benefit him. You seem to be laboring under the impression that Ming is a fair and balanced commentator on issues relating to WoW when you really ought to know better by now. When Ming's ego gets pitted againsthis sense of fairness or his capacity for logic I'm sure his ego win every single time. Getting easy cheap wins is very gratifying for the ego.
Ikilu Nov 5, 2007 at 2:18 pm
+1 votes
Why exactly is it bad that rogues are going to be good again? It was fine that Warriors dominated us in every way imaginable before. It was fine that Warlocks could beat Mike Ditka AND Chuck Norris at the same time. Now it's completely unacceptable that rogues can do more than just bleed on their opponents and people are complaining all over the place. Ridiculous. L2P people. Enjoy it when your class gets buffs and learn to adapt to all changes to all classes as they happen. No more whining.
Regrets Nov 3, 2007 at 2:32 am
+0 votes
Ah, so now we have to be 10min rogues to be good top arena? Neat! welcome to 200-300 honour per hour in kill in bgs. Welcome to worse farming than any healing class. Outside of the two ar, the energy regen is so horrible i cant stand it.
I suppose the worst part is the fact that subtility is a one move build. Once ur out of ar, its simply obsolate.
I hope ppl will adapt, if not. Il probly put my rogue on the shelf. I wonder at which ap lvlfFull subt will do more dmg than ar, that will be fun. Really fun. ha.
Geez, Im starting to hate the fact that they buffed subtlity.
Imo prep should reset after 3min out of combat. Its Preparations, prepared for battle, not wait for 10min rolling ur thumbs at farm.
I suppose the worst part is the fact that subtility is a one move build. Once ur out of ar, its simply obsolate.
I hope ppl will adapt, if not. Il probly put my rogue on the shelf. I wonder at which ap lvlfFull subt will do more dmg than ar, that will be fun. Really fun. ha.
Geez, Im starting to hate the fact that they buffed subtlity.
Imo prep should reset after 3min out of combat. Its Preparations, prepared for battle, not wait for 10min rolling ur thumbs at farm.
Jubeik Nov 3, 2007 at 3:06 am
+1 votes
The prep cooldown idea isn't great, but i agree that it is gay that sub is pretty much the overwhelming best choice for specs right now. I really help they make changes to make Muti viable. I just can't stand maces; everytime i try to play them i just get annoyed with how boring the spec is and having to wait 10 min to have any nuts. Furthermore, if i wanted to be a retard with a mace I'd re-roll warrior.Â
I'm starting to power level another toon and maintaining the rogue until daggers are viable again.
I'm starting to power level another toon and maintaining the rogue until daggers are viable again.
lemonademan72 Nov 3, 2007 at 3:20 am
+1 votes
Just because AR/Prep will be the definitive rogue 2v2 spec doesn't mean
we all have to be 10 minute rogues, lol. Any other spec with hemo will
do just fine for being outside of arena. A 30/0/31 Would be great for
farming/BGing when needed, and hell even raid hemo can now be strong.
With something like 16/21/24 you can pick up ruth lethality, DW spec,
BF, hemo, prep, and DD. decent dps and support for pve.
we all have to be 10 minute rogues, lol. Any other spec with hemo will
do just fine for being outside of arena. A 30/0/31 Would be great for
farming/BGing when needed, and hell even raid hemo can now be strong.
With something like 16/21/24 you can pick up ruth lethality, DW spec,
BF, hemo, prep, and DD. decent dps and support for pve.
Jubeik Nov 3, 2007 at 3:27 am
+1 votes
2x Imp sprint is part of what makes that spec go. Prep imp sprint gives us mobility options that we lack so badly with other specs. The BF isn't on prep and AR is the only thing that gives the spec much punch. 16/21/24 is interesting, but it seems like you're missing out by skipping AR.
Kawklee Nov 3, 2007 at 5:14 pm
+1 votes
"200-300 honour per hour in kill in bgs." What a horrible exagerration, my holy pally does at LEAST 1000-2000 honor per hour through Queue hopping and pugging AV. Your class is going to be extremely strong solo (as any class that brings no group buffs should) and you're complaining? Ridiculous man.
Aziraphale Nov 4, 2007 at 1:24 am
+1 votes
Make no mistake: you're probably still retarded for playing a rogue and thinking you're good/it's hard =D
zyZ- Nov 3, 2007 at 2:58 am
+2 votes
you guys still dueling at the lake? BEM w/ arena queue to reset prep is so much better.
Jasi Nov 3, 2007 at 3:32 am
+1 votes
Yeah his 1500 hemo crit was with 410 resilence and 15% less damage heh. Although I think the buff is fine. Leave it the way it is.
Yvel Nov 3, 2007 at 4:22 am
+1 votes
5 Pt Expose Shadowstep lvl 55 Mob. I bet you probably vanished also to get the 10% dmg buff. Let's take a fully sundered zerk stance warrior with death wish and see you MS him.
Serennia Nov 3, 2007 at 6:20 am
+1 votes
If you vanish when you're soloing an npc... take a guess what happens?
Toohottotrot Nov 3, 2007 at 7:28 am
+1 votes
Serennia, like you can't produce crits way over that with any other class as well? Staged crits with all possible buffs doesn't mean ****. You as a warrior should know that. He probably vanished right before the crits as well, so he got the 6 second 10% MoS buff also.
Toohottotrot Nov 3, 2007 at 7:29 am
+1 votes
You just need another player to keep him in combat, oh that was hard.
Serennia Nov 3, 2007 at 7:52 am
+0 votes
Please tell me what buffs the rogue in the second screenshot has, considering you can see his entire UI.
Toohottotrot Nov 3, 2007 at 7:58 am
+2 votes
I can tell you this. I logged on the ptr with my rogue. Specced 21/0/41 to get max AP/DMG - went to the tram and started hitting some lvl 1 Rats. Mongoose procced and my AP was about 2500. Went into stealth and Cold Blood Hemorrhaged a Rat with Rod of the Sun King, guess what? It's not even near the figure we see people reproducing using every possible buff and scenario that NEVER will occur in real play. I crit the rat for 2616, A RAT, zero armor. Now you gonna tell me I'm gonna go around 3,5king people in Arena with that? Wake the **** up and smell the staged pictures your eyes are so focused on, you can reproduce such numbers with any class under the right circumstances.
Serennia Nov 3, 2007 at 8:00 am
-1 votes
"It's not even near the figure we see people reproducing using every possible buff and scenario that NEVER will occur in real play"
Please tell me what buffs the rogue in the second screenshot has, considering you can see his entire UI.
Toohottotrot Nov 3, 2007 at 8:05 am
+1 votes
"It's not even near the figure we see people reproducing using every possible buff and/OR scenario that NEVER will occur in real play"
Happy?
I was hitting rats with 2,5k AP in stealth (with a better hemo weapon) and got 1k less dmg than him, shouldn't that tell you something? Just borrow a rogue and go to the PTR and check for yourself. Those numbers are either altered or there's something into play that I cannot see.
Happy?
I was hitting rats with 2,5k AP in stealth (with a better hemo weapon) and got 1k less dmg than him, shouldn't that tell you something? Just borrow a rogue and go to the PTR and check for yourself. Those numbers are either altered or there's something into play that I cannot see.
Toohottotrot Nov 3, 2007 at 8:11 am
+1 votes
Well the gnum is using the Syphon which is better than the Rod of the Sun King, but I mixed it up with a picture of a NE on the forums using the Talon of Aszhara getting 3,5kish.. which is worse than the Rod. Still I got 1k less on bleeding rats. If you can't see those numbers wont be happening in any real situation you're never gonna see it, because you only see what you want to see. And that's "a rogue buff that needs nerfing", because you might loose in a duel now. Buhuu.
Toohottotrot Nov 3, 2007 at 8:20 am
+1 votes
I can see 3k happening on zero armor targets IF you use Shadowstep for the 20% extra damage, but you won't see that happening in a AR/Prep or CB/Prep build.
Caste Nov 3, 2007 at 12:13 pm
+1 votes
"Please tell me what buffs the rogue in the second screenshot has, considering you can see his entire UI."
Shadow Step, full expose armor, possible it was below 35% health at the time, also can't tell if they had master of sub at the time or not. Also using a 2.8 MH.
Shadow Step, full expose armor, possible it was below 35% health at the time, also can't tell if they had master of sub at the time or not. Also using a 2.8 MH.
evlgenius Nov 3, 2007 at 5:47 pm
+2 votes
You realize that the main source of boosting that damage, shadowstep, is not part of any playable pvp spec right?
Hey, have you watched that ptr farming video you made? Where, you know, you aoe 4 mobs for this much damage? Yeah it's hemo thats overpowered ROFL.
Hey, have you watched that ptr farming video you made? Where, you know, you aoe 4 mobs for this much damage? Yeah it's hemo thats overpowered ROFL.
nzgs Nov 3, 2007 at 8:00 pm
+4 votes
serennia you are such a ******* retard, and you make warriors look stupid.
Hid Nov 3, 2007 at 3:18 am
+1 votes
No comment on the change to the DR on silence effects? Before it was only silence, now INTERRUPT (kick) effects are also affected by diminishing returns. This will suck major ass for 2v2 and 3v3 as a rogue. Almost so bad that I would rather they take both it and the hemo buff back (yes, I play hemo). Basically, your second kick within 15 sec AFTER the kick silence ends (20 seconds from when you push the kick button) will only lock out the school for 2.5 sec, third 1.25, and fourth he will be immune (to the interrupt as well, and yes, I've actually tried it, and yes, it won't even interrupt the spell cast after the 3rd kick). Some of our hardest 2v2/3v3 fights just became A LOT harder. No longer will you be able to prevent a lock from fearing you, even if you're on him the whole time (Just as an example).
Jubeik Nov 3, 2007 at 3:24 am
+1 votes
Gouge? KS? CoS? Vanish? don't get me wrong, that is really retarded, but i'm pretty sure it is meant to prevent complete lockouts for gib kills. Thats not entirely a bad thing.
Hid Nov 3, 2007 at 4:19 am
+1 votes
Yes, gouge/ks/clos/vanish will help, but let's take a 2v2 with rogue resto druid as an example.. Good luck trying to kill a shaman or pala healer (when they're teamed with a hunter/warr/rogue).. Also, good luck killing any lock healer setup. (Not that it was really doable before either, but still, a lot harder now). Also, having to waste 45 energy to interrupt a spellcast, and then 4 seconds of no dps at all is a major nerf. clos is 1 minute and vanish 5 minutes. Sure, you will be able to avoid that fear for like a minute if you use all your cd's after eachother.. But, then what? A warlock with a healer will have no problem staying alive for 1 minute. After that you will start eating full duration fears every DR reset. :/
Akumos Nov 3, 2007 at 3:40 am
+1 votes
Have you considered getting FH to attune/run you through BT for the Syphon, or what? You could potentially even pay them off some gold to attune and give you it if you sell teams.
Raptoreyes Nov 3, 2007 at 4:01 am
+3 votes
Ming what is this hogwash about being quote "finally the strongest
class"? I remember quite clearly Rogues being the strongest class at
the dawn of TBC until just about the end of season one for everything
PVP except perhaps 3v3 and 5v5 .... maybe. Rogue's didn't start
having any kind of trouble of all until about just before the season
2. Even then you're one time blogging buddy Dahis often hinted that
rogues were little much more beefy than was often alleged by you during
the same time period.
The rise and fall of Rogues has been first last and always one of
itemization. At the beginning of TBC nobody had any resilience and
Rogue burst damage tore through most people before they ever had a
chance to even fight back. Only Resto Shamans, very defensive warrior
builds, double ice block mages, and feral Druids, had a fighting
chance. Of those that did have a fighting chance only ice block mages
and Resto Shamans were also popular arena specs. By the end of season
one those lucky enough to have full gladiator sets were actually pretty
balanced against Rogues.
Early season two was still pretty balanced, but as time wore on, people
begin to stack stamina/resilience in a very serious way. By late season two most
people had enough resilience simply built into their gear by default,
the shrug off many Rogue opening combos. Additionally resilience was
also preventing many beneficial Rogue Proc's that happen only during
crits, but this was later revealed to be simply a bug. Stats such as
melee haste, armor penetration, chance to hit, and weapon procs were
both rare and minor on gear, during this period.
Now we arrive in season three. By this time an itemization history the
resilience Actually means something. Stats outside of stamina,
resilience and extra damage, are beginning to show up on gear in
significant amounts. To top it all off Blizzard has made some hasty
and unwise bluffs on the PTR. Hopefully some last-minute balance
changes can be made before this article of Ming's becomes prophetic.
Quite the contrary Ming.... any news would be good news at this point.
class"? I remember quite clearly Rogues being the strongest class at
the dawn of TBC until just about the end of season one for everything
PVP except perhaps 3v3 and 5v5 .... maybe. Rogue's didn't start
having any kind of trouble of all until about just before the season
2. Even then you're one time blogging buddy Dahis often hinted that
rogues were little much more beefy than was often alleged by you during
the same time period.
The rise and fall of Rogues has been first last and always one of
itemization. At the beginning of TBC nobody had any resilience and
Rogue burst damage tore through most people before they ever had a
chance to even fight back. Only Resto Shamans, very defensive warrior
builds, double ice block mages, and feral Druids, had a fighting
chance. Of those that did have a fighting chance only ice block mages
and Resto Shamans were also popular arena specs. By the end of season
one those lucky enough to have full gladiator sets were actually pretty
balanced against Rogues.
Early season two was still pretty balanced, but as time wore on, people
begin to stack stamina/resilience in a very serious way. By late season two most
people had enough resilience simply built into their gear by default,
the shrug off many Rogue opening combos. Additionally resilience was
also preventing many beneficial Rogue Proc's that happen only during
crits, but this was later revealed to be simply a bug. Stats such as
melee haste, armor penetration, chance to hit, and weapon procs were
both rare and minor on gear, during this period.
Now we arrive in season three. By this time an itemization history the
resilience Actually means something. Stats outside of stamina,
resilience and extra damage, are beginning to show up on gear in
significant amounts. To top it all off Blizzard has made some hasty
and unwise bluffs on the PTR. Hopefully some last-minute balance
changes can be made before this article of Ming's becomes prophetic.
Quite the contrary Ming.... any news would be good news at this point.
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