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by Ming, Level 69
Last updated at January 9, 2008, 1:40 am
Loz's exact spec:



http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheoRxMoiZZxrfoMuRoxo



I blew probably 1000g in respecs from the day AR/prep
nerf was announced to today, I tried every spec and while some will
perform better with specific set-ups in specific brackets, none of them
come close to SF/hemo for playing in all three brackets across the
largest variety of comps.




The inevitable finally happened, as hard as it is to confront the loss of the second AR from AR/prep, everyone must move on and find their new niche. I think the first a few weeks will see people with all sorts of different specs before everyone settle in for good. And I believe when the smoke clears, SF/hemo will be the most popular spec once people understand how close it was to AR/prep in 2.3.



SF/hemo was the most versatile spec not named AR/prep in 2.3. In fact, if you have access to the T6 trinket (and god I hope they add a good crit trinket for PVPers soon), one can argue this was every bit as good as AR/prep. Look at Loz, 3rd ranked 3v3 team in BG9 with warrior/rogue/druid, I would argue SF/hemo was better for this comp than pre-nerf AR/prep because of super fast improved EA for your warrior, and quick recovery is a huge increase in rogue survivability as well. Of course, he has 120 higher AP and 1% more crit than me, that is while wearing the amazing T6 trinket that adds no passive stats. QR allows him to drop some stamina/resilience for superior offensive stats despite playing on a team where he is the primary target.



It is probably the most versatile spec when it comes to competing in all three brackets. There are many myths about SF/hemo which I would like to dispel:



1) AR/Prep owns SF/hemo toe-to-toe



Nothing can be further from the truth. My version of AR/prep included 5% dodge and 5% parry, riposte, mace stuns, and set-up for maximum anti-melee power. I fought Telemarketer aka Litercola on PTR no-stealth, no-CD, and it was 50-50 with just both of us toe-to-toeing each other. Now consider QR, when backed by healers, AR/prep's healer will go OOM first, especially with only one AR.



2) Your sustained damage is lacking unless you pick-up DW spec



5 point improved expose armor: 3075

Serrated blade: 560

Full S3 Gear + Dory's Embrace: 518



That is 4153 armor, stripping a rogue to zero armor is a 35% increase in damage (100% / 74% = 1.34). Outside of mutilate there is no other spec that has enough combo points to consistently maintain expose armor at all times on top of slice and dice. Even against S3 warriors with 2 hand, 4153 armor is a 30% increase in physical damage. Tanking warriors until his healer is OOM has been a pretty popular strategy, and SF hemo is certainly capable of it once you strip a warrior's armor. The damage he is taking will be out of control especially with a magic DPS assisting, he will be forced to go one hand and shield and even then 4153 armor is roughly 25% damage increase against a shield warrior.



Even without expose armor up, this spec has deceivingly high damage. Telemarketer was able to drop me from 8000 health in a single 5-point kidney shot without expose armor up. CB evis after target hits 35% hurts a lot. Hemo debuff itself is equal to +226 AP for your mainhand, +392 for offhand, now throw in 160 AP from deadliness and serrated blades, you have white damage comparable to 41/20 combat mutilate.



And vs AR/prep, precision/dw spec/weapon specialization combine for 12-13% overall damage. But murder +2%, malice +4% even vs 400 resilience targets, relentless is at least 4% overall damage, now throw in ruthless/seal fate, SF/hemo will definitely outdamage AR/prep by a big margin when AR's are down.



And in 2.3.2, I would say two CB is simply superior to one AR, it is far harder to CC, and it is true on demand burst damage, especially with premeditation.



3) The hemo nerf makes hemo inferior to sinister strike



Once again this is the most silly statement I have heard in a long time. 1600 AP and S3 weapons, damage per 40 energy:



2.3 hemo (did not uses its own debuff): 774

2.3.2 hemo without sinister calling (does use its own debuff: 729

2.3.2 hemo with sinister calling (does use its own debuff: 791

41 combat sinister strike: 746

Ghostly strike (uses hemo debuff, unnormalized): 748



Never, ever forget, that sinister strike costs 14% more energy than hemo, and unless you have full aggression and surprise attacks, doesn't do 14% more damage. This is before dirty deeds, 10% higher AP etc. The superiority of hemo over sinister strike and the strength of prep is what makes it very hard for me to go QR combat.



Bottomline, with 100% PVP geared rogues able to go as high as 1750 AP and 32% crit (and 5% hit without any hit gems), SF hemo is not lacking in damage. Fleet footed with proper meta gem + boot enchant is 20% chance to resist snares, coupled with 7% higher movement speed, it goes a long way making up the lack of two improved sprints.




It is a very, very potent spec. The best way for me to describe it, is sustained damage of subtlety mutilate, without positioning/poison requirements, and the power of prep. In fact, with hemo debuff and 10% higher AP, you will see higher sustained damage than subtlety mutilate. It really is the spec with least weaknesses at the moment.




Filler choices:



1) Poisons



Vile poison works extremely well against shamans (extremely popular in 5v5) and paladins. I did notice vile poison working against escape artist and improved sprint as well, which is a nice bonus. However, it does not work against our number one enemy in 2v2/3v3, druid abolish poison. I tested it outside of IF, it works against the initial tick, but the next four ticks will ALWAYS remove four stacks. It is a silly, silly bug that really wrecks a great, great talent.



2) Vigor vs Premeditation



I am going to play 2v2 competitively with Radikal and I liked premeditation a lot for that bracket. Vigor only really works well if you get kited a lot and have to go in-and-out of combat a lot, and if that happens you are probably losing anyway. CB evis -> prep -> vanish CS premed CS -> CB evis, that is four second and a LOT of damage. Premeditation also sets up instant 5 point expose armors and allows you to get the EA + SND rotation up right away, it is also amazing in duels. Premeditation is just too good for rushdown style.  I will be experimenting with both, 120 energy with a 35 energy special is sexy as well, I can't deny.



I am having a blast playing with Radikal's AP/fire spec. I really believe this is potentially a rogue's best 2v2 combo in 2.3.2. Against a 433 resilience priest, we dropped him in six seconds twice, and that is without critting the pyro. I believe we finally have a chance at killing the druid in mage/rogue vs lock/druid. It is simply monster damage and pretty much a free win if his pyro does crit. The trick is of course to always land the pyro, never wasting it on ice block, divine shield, cloak of shadows etc, but I really believe AP/fire with ice block now trainable is going to make for some amazing 2DPS, 3DPS and 4DPS teams and rogue is going to really benefit from them.



Patch 2.4 Preview:



Preparation now resets the cooldown of kidney shot but no longer resets the cooldown of cold blood.



Just kidding :-D
     
143 comments
Maldazzar
Maldazzar Jan 9, 2008 at 1:48 am
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+2 votes
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loz uses more than just the t6 trinket
Isolee
Isolee Jan 9, 2008 at 1:54 am
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+1 votes
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Adiara
Adiara Jan 9, 2008 at 3:08 am
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+1 votes
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kt ring / pve boots / belt / slayer's chest i think

he ***** me up when he duels with 4pc slayer ;_;
Braze
Braze Jan 10, 2008 at 12:13 pm
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+1 votes
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I don't know **** anything rogue specs but I do know that no other rogue is able to put as much pressure on me in arenas as loz does, but i've also never fought a rogue in high level arena who has access to the kind of PvE gear that he has (other than trukilla, who I haven't fought in months) and warps around the screen as much as he does when he's on someone (lol fear missing while he's meeleing me). If a lot of his specs viability only comes from his trinket and other PvE gear, it's probably not a great idea to use him as an example as to why you believe SF/hemo is the best spec now.
Holdstrong
Holdstrong Jan 9, 2008 at 1:55 am
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+1 votes
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Any tips for making up the hit loss of precision?

Missing blinds and openers is making me scream.
r0kzilla
r0kzilla Jan 9, 2008 at 2:01 am
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it will be ridiculously hard to beat anything that can heal itself 1v1 without mace stuns and imp kick. Losing imp slice and dice? no ty. And how can you beat a competent mage without imp sprint??

0/31/30 will still be the top spec. All that matter is how well the rogue times his single AR.
Klynx
Klynx Jan 9, 2008 at 4:02 pm
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+1 votes
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I was about to post but you said what I said perfectly.  Loss of precision, dual wield spec passive DPS, mace stuns, BF, AR, weapon expertise, imp slice n dice, imp kick, imp sprint, imp gouge...  no thanks.  I'll keep with my 1 AR and just pay more attention to when I use it.
Malcolm
Malcolm Jan 10, 2008 at 10:00 am
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+1 votes
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"no thanks.  I'll keep with my 1 AR and just pay more attention to when I use it."

You'll also be sticking with gimpier damage (110% hemo) that can no longer be used to justify the build's complete lack of combo point and energy generation.

The spec is now as bad as shadowstep, except you trade more mobility for a moderate amount of burst. Your sustained DPS will be about the same (ie, bad) due to dual-wield specialization versus sinister calling.
Virtua
Virtua Jan 9, 2008 at 2:02 am
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+1 votes
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"SFHemo-Will-Be-The-232-Spec-With-Least-Weaknesses"

what class are u , shaman?
Lane
Lane Jan 9, 2008 at 2:02 am
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+1 votes
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"SF/Hemo Will Be The 2.3.2 Spec "?

What are you smoking Ming? One of the worst predictions you ever made...

Dirty Deeds and 110% dmg hemo, does not come close to making it THE spec.. We're going back to Combat/Mace and Mutilate.
Malcolm
Malcolm Jan 10, 2008 at 10:02 am
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+1 votes
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Good luck succeeding with mutilate in light of the GCD changes. Personally, I'd rather stick forks in my eyes.
Nautik
Nautik Jan 9, 2008 at 2:07 am
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+1 votes
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No improved sprint still seems ****ty to me...  Honestly if blizz just made imp sprint the normal sprint or the whole reduced duration/cooldown thing.  Rogues would be fine and this spec would be alot better than it already is.
snowflake
snowflake Jan 9, 2008 at 2:08 am
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Have any of you considered a spec like something in the line of :


http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053231040000000000000000000000000000000000005502131000311210531351


Where you will use hemo as your primary attack, but macro'ing a weapon swap to dagger and Backstab  after using shs?

something like:

/castsequence reset=10 shadowstep /equip [Dagger Name] backstab /equip [Mace Name]

You will have more mobility that a sf/hemo build with unpredictable burst in a BS every 30 sec, which could crit more than coldblood over a period of 2 min.

The thing to consider is the weapon swap CD and the shs global cooldown. Has anyone tried something like this before?
Psylocke
Psylocke Jan 9, 2008 at 5:52 am
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+1 votes
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Putting 5 points in Opportunity and then only using it every 30 seconds is not wise, you are wasting points better put elsewhere not to mention wasting Shadowstep for when you really need it, say a a mage Blinking or a druid in travelform.
Akumos
Akumos Jan 9, 2008 at 2:15 am
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+1 votes
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I played with 30/0/31 for a while last month, using surefooted and the snare meta, and to be honest the biggest hit is in 2s where you're trying to kill a druid, or 3s where you're on a mage. It's just so hard to not be kited without imp sprint. You can't blow a vanish early to not be seen with this spec, as you need that snare breaker now. It's unfortunate, but I'm going to have to agree that SF/Hemo(though I think it will be 30/0/31 for me) is probably going to be the best spec. At least for me, using a T6 trinket and some other t6 quality AP gear.
Quornholian
Quornholian Jan 9, 2008 at 2:26 am
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Even if we have all the premed and seal fate and imp EA, i don't believe it would be enough to provide the initial burst of a good AR timing when we want to take down primary target as soon as possible. Plus, in all 2v2 , 3v3 and 5v5 brackets, absence of dual wield specialization and precision are tremendous dps loss overall. With losing mace spec as well with what you suggested, i most certainly believe i would go deep combat maces or stay HARP or mutilate whatever.

One thing for sure is i would never ever give up my 20 points in combat tree in any spec in this game, whether it is for pvp or for pve. It just doesnt work for me, maybe it does for you guys.
XWings
XWings Jan 9, 2008 at 2:32 am
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+2 votes
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I don't believe SF/Hemo will outpower HARP, or even get very close in the common setups.
Going for Combat again, since it's a better counter against our nemesis as HARP actually was for healer/rogue.
Wrestlerdork
Wrestlerdork Jan 9, 2008 at 6:10 pm
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+0 votes
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I like the HARP acronym. Props for that.
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