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by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at February 4, 2008, 8:51 pm
I haven't really talked about the 2.4 pre-release notes but there really haven't been anything worth writing about. The one change I noticed was haste rating reducing spell casting global cooldowns, and I really wonder if they can take it a step further and have mind-numbing poison / curse of tongues increase the same GCDs. It would be nice if rogues have a way to deal with instant spams and it would certainly increase the warrior/rogue synergy. I expect warrior/retribution paladin to completely phase out warrior/rogue in 3v3 once more and more paladins get their retribution set. It is a much, much more satisfying style of play for paladins who are sick and tired of being healbots. It is already spreading like wild fire in China (thanks Nick!), with many BG-leading teams playing the set-up, even their 3v3 nationwide tournament (with half of world's WOW population) has top teams using that comp.

On the other hand we will have additional heroic badge loots in 2.4. As much as I hate grinding for badges, any new loot is better than no loot. I am praying for a new trinket to replace bloodlust brooth with, a DPS ring to replace the aging season 2 ring doesn't hurt either. Item level topped out at 136 for Dory's Embrace in 2.3, I am hoping for 141 this time around which will be very close to T6 counterparts.

If you haven't be sure to check out Serennia/Neilyo's quick 2v2 clip. I find it hilarious that they run the exact same comp (shadowstep rogue and 34/0/27 balance druid) and exact same strategies as Jamoro, and have a 90% win rate on their way to top 5 of BG9 the very second day they played the comp. Even if we give Neilyo benefit of the doubt in skill over Jamoro, he doesn't have the sharingan and most definitely doesn't have the warglaives. As good as Serennia is with his warrior, it is hard to imagine his druid being better than Blizp who has been playing the class since the beginning. So with a weaker team they have almost the same winning percentage of Jamoro, is BG9 really as strong as advertised? Looking at the clip they posted I really can't tell the difference between a top 20 BG9 warrior/druid team versus the no-name European BG. You can play the "2v2 is dead on BG9" card but what makes you think people from other BGs play it seriously after all this time?

In any case, the Cyclone 5v5 tournament finally came to an end. ZOM's team managed to get out of the loser bracket with wins over Cherekee's Nihilum, and it was a clash between two European rogue heroes for grand finals. On paper, with a druid on both teams, ZOM's euro-style 53 assassination spec with 12 points in poison should have the edge against abolish poison. In reality, even without a single point in poisons, shadowstep's mobility allowed Adrasill to stick to the warlock much better and took a 2-0 lead in the one bracket people thought mutilate had an edge on shadowstep. A time out later, ZOM went combat maces but perhaps more importantly, his warlock took a page from Kintt's earlier comments on "how to deal with rogue 3DPS teams) and went SL/SL. The increased durability of a SL/SL warlock over felguard allowed ZOM's team to tie it up before losing the final game.

It is pretty amazing that shadowstep is now the best spec for every bracket if you are playing the right comps with it. The increased 8% sustained damage of combat and CB mutilate burst combo do not compare to the superior mobility of shadowstep. There are many, many ways to increase damage and deep subtlety's scalability is tremendous, but mobility (and survivability) is something you can't get anywhere else. Going forward, barring dramatic buffs on combat or mutilate, shadowstep will most likely have at least 60% market share of the top rogues. Shadowstep really opens up a whole world of opportunities that even the 2.3 AR/Prep didn't have.

For people who compared the Cyclone tournament videos to Inactive's 5v5 video, let's just say it is much easier to look good if you play 20 matches and release the one you like the best. If someone ever released the CLC vs Shuttle***** series that triggered Clicker (CLC paladin)'s retirement, especially from Shuttle***** perspective I don't think CLC would look very good at all. Heck even the WSVG tournament matches are considerably lower quality than high rating games played in most battlegroups. There is a huge difference between casual matches with nothing to lose where you can do all kind of fancy stuff without worrying about losing. BG9 was late on 4DPS, 2345 and 2346 comps, perhaps eventually they will catch up to the rogue 3DPS comp that is tearing it up in every BG. Perhaps Serennia/Neilyo with the new SK sponsorship would bring this style of play to BG9?
     
165 comments
Mathia
Mathia Feb 4, 2008 at 8:53 pm
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sweet


edit: SOUNDS LIKE ROGUES NEED SOME BUFFS HUH
Thrict
Thrict Feb 4, 2008 at 9:00 pm
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I really hope they don't add any worthwhile PvP items. It was hard enough to get the 60 for the cloak on one of my characters, haven't even been able to get it for my others.
briyan
briyan Feb 5, 2008 at 12:33 am
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Agree completely.  They need to allow a means to purchase these items by PvP.
Yar
Yar Feb 4, 2008 at 9:01 pm
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Seleukos
Seleukos Feb 4, 2008 at 9:01 pm
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"I expect warrior/retribution paladin to completely phase out warrior/rogue in 3v3 once more and more paladins get their retribution set. It is a much, much more satisfying style of play for paladins who are sick and tired of being healbots" - Ming.
Double Melee is really, really lame to play on. You just zerg someone (re warlock/drood) till they die. It's a boring and lame comp. Ret isn't fixt when in 2v2/3v3/5v5 it only has one comp it can play on that could even concieve of getting top 5.
Also threes is just counter comp musical chairs any way.
zyZ-
zyZ- Feb 4, 2008 at 10:33 pm
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What exactly isn't considered "lame" these days?
LEETON
LEETON Feb 4, 2008 at 10:45 pm
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running the honorable lock rogue priest build, for sure. FOR SURE
Seleukos
Seleukos Feb 4, 2008 at 10:47 pm
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Personally I think that RMP, Warrior/Lock/Drood and Lock/Hunter/Drood are all much more enjoyable comps to play on. All of them also allow their players to play with more finese/skill whether it's required or not they let them play a more interesting game. Not that any of the teams I mentioned can be played skillessly and still do well however.
BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Feb 4, 2008 at 11:14 pm
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Yeah double melee is pretty retarded
Drjim
Drjim Feb 5, 2008 at 5:12 pm
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For the ppl that can barelly see behind the "just zerg" factor i have to say one thing.
If you claim its "lame" go do it achieve a top 10 and then say it. IMO rogue warrior druid is more like 1vs1 or something like that. No offensive / defensive dispell no CC (only druid but he might be zerged/silenced/cc'd etc...). That means the players that play that are self eficient and can handle tough situations. I agree that RPM or WWD or DRW is good with finese as well but guys u cant just say WRD is JUST a zerg lineup. You have all the time to prove me wrong though.
shindofivezorz
shindofivezorz Feb 4, 2008 at 9:02 pm
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Errelnoh
Errelnoh Feb 4, 2008 at 9:06 pm
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I wonder if blizzard will ever do a tournament in any bracket without all the stupid asteriks.  If they would just redo their 5v5 tournament without all the dumb disqualifications, it would go a long way towards reviving high end arenas.
Adzzy
Adzzy Feb 6, 2008 at 12:43 am
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why? the same ppl would still be playing, maybe pandemic might come out of semi retirement and play 10 more games a week, but there's no real reason for the top teams to even push it until the last cpl weeks.

Arena did well before the last 5v5 tournament, not so much because there was a tournament, but because it was fun, heh, VC getting screwed sorta spiralled it all though, there was a rush for gladiator at the end of s2, but shrug weren't most of the top teams just sitting on ratings?

Also, weren't the dq rules and that for the most part legal related?
Serennia
Serennia Feb 4, 2008 at 9:07 pm
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Hi Ming,
Neilyo rendered one of our fights against Slayer's Crest (Shazovv/Zhakar) in a video you can see here:  

files.filefront.com/DruidRogue vs Rogue Priestwmv/;9568272;/
 
Tell me what you think about their strat and the fight in general, because... well, you'll see.
Stylus81
Stylus81 Feb 4, 2008 at 10:30 pm
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siko
siko Feb 4, 2008 at 10:37 pm
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combat spec > shadowstep for that fight the rogue on the priest team beat the hell out of your rogue, but the fact that you could drink way more let you win.
Hid
Hid Feb 4, 2008 at 10:41 pm
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Oh my ******* god, that play and tactic was just AWFUL. You're terrible for ***** sake. Learn to kite the rogue, learn to avoid mana burns(lol?), learn to prevent drinking better, get better situational and tactical awareness, and for the love of -something- don't play it like that.
Hid
Hid Feb 4, 2008 at 10:44 pm
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No, I did not count how many mana burns landed, if any, I just saw him trying to get a cast in without you noticing it fast enough, putting pressure on your rogue to handle it, forcing a change in game play, and probably ******* up his short-term tactics without the need to do so.
Hid
Hid Feb 4, 2008 at 10:46 pm
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We would've won that game in under 5 minutes as rogue/druid. Yes, you're that terrible.
cheatz
cheatz Feb 5, 2008 at 1:30 am
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OMG NEILYO SO GOOD
SO GOOD IT HUUURTS
cheatz
cheatz Feb 5, 2008 at 5:08 am
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NEILYO CARRIES SERENNIA IN 2V2.
Romantic
Romantic Feb 5, 2008 at 5:21 am
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Just like he carried Serennia to #1 in 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 at the same time season 2?  Negative.  Both are high quality players.
Fallout
Fallout Feb 5, 2008 at 8:36 am
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Any video of Shazovv/Shindo againts yours?
drole
drole Feb 5, 2008 at 4:11 pm
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I think you got the strat right, but it is quite evident from the clip that you need more experience playing it :P
Gogo more cyclones on the rogue. Not to mention lol at your tunnelvision kill attempt at the priest :P
Good stuff otherwise and much love to neilyo's new tranceaddiction! (l)
Serennia
Serennia Feb 5, 2008 at 4:25 pm
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You really have no idea what you're talking about
Adzzy
Adzzy Feb 6, 2008 at 12:46 am
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a druid drank more....that's never happened before, druids never win 2's by using drinking to out mana their opponents....
metalhead86
metalhead86 Feb 6, 2008 at 11:52 am
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Watched the clip, from playing priest/rogue I can tell you what other teams have done to be successful. Usually the ones that win are the ones who played zerg dps style on our priest. With off heals and cyclones I'm not able to shut down both dps and my priest hasn't been able to cope with that.

The other factor here is you have to acknowledge that you're playing on blades edge, which is huge for a druid. Usually what we'll try to do with druids that heal more than damage is get the rogue locked up in combat with me. Since I don't play shadowstep my damage is superior locked up one on one and we're able to cut the druid out of mana fast. Once the druid is out of mana its a quick swap and easy kill on the druid. We've only lost this style on blades edge, otherwise it is a very solid approach.

This usually will not work if the rogue on rogue battle finds its way into that pit you guys were in at the end... the druid has such an advantage from the priest in that spot it is ridiculous.

But basically, more aggressive double dps on the priest for a faster win.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 4, 2008 at 9:09 pm unhide comment
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Twoface
Twoface Feb 4, 2008 at 10:19 pm
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Talk about nerd rage, lol.

All he said was in online pvp videos, you can choose the best matches out of an assortment of matches, so people usually end-up seeing when teams play at their best. In tournaments, there are no assortment of matches, you upload whatever happens... and if you pull off some dumb mistake (which you'd never want to put into your video usually), tough.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 4, 2008 at 10:42 pm unhide comment
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Ming
Ming Feb 4, 2008 at 10:42 pm
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So when you have your re-match, post the ENTIRE series UNEDITED and show us what the top two BG9 teams can do?  You have enough guts child?
LEETON
LEETON Feb 4, 2008 at 10:46 pm
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wisdomcube
wisdomcube Feb 4, 2008 at 10:58 pm unhide comment
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Cooldown
Cooldown Feb 4, 2008 at 11:08 pm
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hey ming, why have you been dodging buddhist/lewt in 2s all week?
oh yeah, it's cause you don't want to end up in their video. D:
I wouldn't talk **** to inactive about not wanting to post bad clips when you won't queue against a moonkin.
Ming
Ming Feb 4, 2008 at 11:15 pm
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When Radikal is on, we will play, as simple as that.
Rogue/balance druid is the strongest combo atm, what is wrong with Moonkin?  If he is stupid enough to not get NS it is not our fault.
Cooldown
Cooldown Feb 4, 2008 at 11:21 pm
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so you dodged them then you called lewt stupid? lol


and yeah, moonkin rogue isn't the strongest combo atm, don't kid around
Globals
Globals Feb 5, 2008 at 3:58 am
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he posted our first 3 games, we were all rusty as hell, playing like crap still, and just starting to grasp a concept how to play your lineup. If anything you shoulda showed the video's of all the games after the first 3 to accurately depict the series.

but i doubt he has the guts like ming said.
BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Feb 5, 2008 at 4:19 am
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You mean the ones where you get some sweet RNG then stop queuing after you're up by 1 game?
Globals
Globals Feb 5, 2008 at 4:34 am
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sweet RNG is not what was happening for the majority of those games.
Ravel
Ravel Feb 5, 2008 at 6:10 am
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Ekss
Ekss Feb 5, 2008 at 9:17 am
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I'm pretty sure Ming just took a giant dump on Inactive's chest.
skromzor
skromzor Feb 5, 2008 at 9:53 am
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Globals why do you have the loudest mouth on your team when you are the worst? You put yourself in the worst situations as far as over-extending and don't even realize you are being focused until your sct pops up "low health". Talk **** all you like it doesn't change that while your team may be good.... you are far from their standard.
Globals
Globals Feb 5, 2008 at 10:46 am
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If he posted the whole series his play would likely be worse then mine in the majority of the remaining games, and it would completely blow his argument for being outgeared instead of outplayed.
Godsmak
Godsmak Feb 5, 2008 at 11:59 am
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How can Ming even open his mouth. He's a nobody when it comes to actual skill. All he does is steal others ideas and put out claims like "Seal Fate/Hemo WILL BE TEH BEST!!!".
****in loser
Inactive
Inactive Feb 5, 2008 at 7:50 pm
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I will post all the games we play vs Shuttle***** unedited (I never edited them to begin with) on Thursday when we play as 2346, delusional man with an imaginary girl friend that looks like a small boy (correlation here? Ming likes small children? You decide).

P.S Don't talk to us about being rusty. We hadn't played Hunter/Lock in 4 weeks and we hadn't played the 2 prior weeks before that either AND our paladin blew and kinda planned on quitting the game before we even played those games.. While you played every Thursday (lol 1 day a week scrubs).
Looks like you're resorting to "excuses" which you said you'd never do. Get called out, get bursted by Hunter/Lock with a PvE Paladin for being terrible and like it.
Globals
Globals Feb 5, 2008 at 9:09 pm
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you can rant for months if you want, I'm just saying you handed out all the early games, you got emberassed pretty hard in some of the latter games.
Iblis
Iblis Feb 5, 2008 at 11:14 pm
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sorry bro, ur a still a player of a class that its played by using 4 buttons. aka charge, spamstring and ms. you can brag 2 years about how nice SRs u do, its science fiction.
Iblis
Iblis Feb 5, 2008 at 11:18 pm
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again, you just suck, tard player playing tard class. go qq more when in 2.4 wars will be even more gimped. without a druid at 2s u are ****
Inactive
Inactive Feb 5, 2008 at 11:35 pm
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Iblis: I have nothing to say to you other than you're a genuine retard. I definitely play 2v2/3v3 so druid nerfs would affect me so hard.
BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Feb 4, 2008 at 9:34 pm
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So much dumb in this article, even for Ming.
Seleukos
Seleukos Feb 4, 2008 at 9:40 pm unhide comment
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Ming
Ming Feb 4, 2008 at 10:41 pm
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Learn to read, warrior/rogue replaced by warrior/ret paladin, I didn't say anything about RMP.
Seleukos
Seleukos Feb 4, 2008 at 10:45 pm
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I understand you're talking about one comp. Thats my point. Ret Pallys are only replacing rogue on one comp.
trancez
trancez Feb 5, 2008 at 12:29 am
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the most geared ret pally i know of (Saabik) plays that comp in bg9, it's fairly successful esp vs RMP imo.
Vadaria
Vadaria Feb 4, 2008 at 9:45 pm
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Better than his "lets bind every attack to one macro" post.
Edit: meant to reply to beastwood above
Hid
Hid Feb 4, 2008 at 11:00 pm
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Stop with the damn flaming because of that post. I usually dislike all of Ming's posts, but the macro one was the first blog I've read in quite some time that has come even remotely close to helping me in some way (the /stopattack on vanish macro, I hadn't thought of that before, silly me I guess, but to be honest, his post did help me improve my game play).

I mean, there's so many other posts by him you could be complaining about, but you chose one that's actually a bit interesting to read? =)
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