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by Ming, Level 68
Last updated at February 4, 2008, 8:51 pm
I haven't really talked about the 2.4 pre-release notes but there really haven't been anything worth writing about. The one change I noticed was haste rating reducing spell casting global cooldowns, and I really wonder if they can take it a step further and have mind-numbing poison / curse of tongues increase the same GCDs. It would be nice if rogues have a way to deal with instant spams and it would certainly increase the warrior/rogue synergy. I expect warrior/retribution paladin to completely phase out warrior/rogue in 3v3 once more and more paladins get their retribution set. It is a much, much more satisfying style of play for paladins who are sick and tired of being healbots. It is already spreading like wild fire in China (thanks Nick!), with many BG-leading teams playing the set-up, even their 3v3 nationwide tournament (with half of world's WOW population) has top teams using that comp.

On the other hand we will have additional heroic badge loots in 2.4. As much as I hate grinding for badges, any new loot is better than no loot. I am praying for a new trinket to replace bloodlust brooth with, a DPS ring to replace the aging season 2 ring doesn't hurt either. Item level topped out at 136 for Dory's Embrace in 2.3, I am hoping for 141 this time around which will be very close to T6 counterparts.

If you haven't be sure to check out Serennia/Neilyo's quick 2v2 clip. I find it hilarious that they run the exact same comp (shadowstep rogue and 34/0/27 balance druid) and exact same strategies as Jamoro, and have a 90% win rate on their way to top 5 of BG9 the very second day they played the comp. Even if we give Neilyo benefit of the doubt in skill over Jamoro, he doesn't have the sharingan and most definitely doesn't have the warglaives. As good as Serennia is with his warrior, it is hard to imagine his druid being better than Blizp who has been playing the class since the beginning. So with a weaker team they have almost the same winning percentage of Jamoro, is BG9 really as strong as advertised? Looking at the clip they posted I really can't tell the difference between a top 20 BG9 warrior/druid team versus the no-name European BG. You can play the "2v2 is dead on BG9" card but what makes you think people from other BGs play it seriously after all this time?

In any case, the Cyclone 5v5 tournament finally came to an end. ZOM's team managed to get out of the loser bracket with wins over Cherekee's Nihilum, and it was a clash between two European rogue heroes for grand finals. On paper, with a druid on both teams, ZOM's euro-style 53 assassination spec with 12 points in poison should have the edge against abolish poison. In reality, even without a single point in poisons, shadowstep's mobility allowed Adrasill to stick to the warlock much better and took a 2-0 lead in the one bracket people thought mutilate had an edge on shadowstep. A time out later, ZOM went combat maces but perhaps more importantly, his warlock took a page from Kintt's earlier comments on "how to deal with rogue 3DPS teams) and went SL/SL. The increased durability of a SL/SL warlock over felguard allowed ZOM's team to tie it up before losing the final game.

It is pretty amazing that shadowstep is now the best spec for every bracket if you are playing the right comps with it. The increased 8% sustained damage of combat and CB mutilate burst combo do not compare to the superior mobility of shadowstep. There are many, many ways to increase damage and deep subtlety's scalability is tremendous, but mobility (and survivability) is something you can't get anywhere else. Going forward, barring dramatic buffs on combat or mutilate, shadowstep will most likely have at least 60% market share of the top rogues. Shadowstep really opens up a whole world of opportunities that even the 2.3 AR/Prep didn't have.

For people who compared the Cyclone tournament videos to Inactive's 5v5 video, let's just say it is much easier to look good if you play 20 matches and release the one you like the best. If someone ever released the CLC vs Shuttle***** series that triggered Clicker (CLC paladin)'s retirement, especially from Shuttle***** perspective I don't think CLC would look very good at all. Heck even the WSVG tournament matches are considerably lower quality than high rating games played in most battlegroups. There is a huge difference between casual matches with nothing to lose where you can do all kind of fancy stuff without worrying about losing. BG9 was late on 4DPS, 2345 and 2346 comps, perhaps eventually they will catch up to the rogue 3DPS comp that is tearing it up in every BG. Perhaps Serennia/Neilyo with the new SK sponsorship would bring this style of play to BG9?
     
165 comments
trancez
trancez Feb 4, 2008 at 9:47 pm
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neilyo's 5s team already plays the '3 dps' comp.
fnatic with caal and co plays it as well.
personally, you have no idea what your talking about. the one common trend i find in bg3(cyclone) is that their 2346 comps aren't as dominant as their hunter/lock comps in their ladder. That's the complete opposite in bg9, and people can argue that 2346 does have a tiny bit of leverage on hunter/lock especially with the upcoming buffs.
Ming
Ming Feb 4, 2008 at 10:40 pm
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Casual teams don't mean anything, as a historian of BG9 you should know most of the top 5v5 comps were made popular in other BGs before someone tore up the BG9 ladder with it.  2346 is very vulnerable to rogue 3DPS, that is why in European BGs it is not as popular.  I remember how BG9 said things like "omg some random scrub team in our BG is running comp X and it doesn't work" then some real team comes in and show you how it is done.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 4, 2008 at 10:41 pm
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explain how 2346 is very vulnerable to rogue 3 DPS please Ming. You can say it with such ease, but back up your points.
BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Feb 4, 2008 at 10:58 pm
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Apparently Ming things scrub warlock zerg strat will work against good teams.
wisdomcube
wisdomcube Feb 4, 2008 at 11:00 pm
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Ming your always days behind Neilyo is already trying this out and it wont be a top 5 team. Well maybe since because of the inactivity. The only thing that saves this setup is cheat death other wise sitting on the rogue would make this a joke.
Ming
Ming Feb 4, 2008 at 11:04 pm
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Let's see here:
2346 has like no CCs whatsoever, rogue is free to do whatever he wants and rogue 3DPS has the strongest CC chains in the game, warrior will be constantly CCed being mostly a non-factor.  Obviously rogue team will be training the warlock in most situations so no real damage from there either.  That is two of your main DPS sources down. 
What you gonna do?  Rely on lucky shaman crits?  Mana burn?  Oops sorry to say with superior CCs on rogue's team (and guaranteed sap to start the fight on either priest or shaman), we are getting mana burns off first.
There is not a single good rogue 3DPS team in BG9, once Neilyo find decent teammates you will be in for a rude awakening, just like when you finally reach 18 and move out of your mother's basement and realize wow, I was a retard when I thought I knew everything about life and WOW.
Ming
Ming Feb 4, 2008 at 11:06 pm
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Neilyo's 5v5 team is merely a gold selling team, he never bothered to put together a real team for it.  Lol at staying on the highest survivability DPS in the game, yeah that is really gonna work against prep/shadowstep/cheat death when it is also the team with most CC options.
Cooldown
Cooldown Feb 4, 2008 at 11:12 pm
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once they fixed the 99% cheat death bug it'll pretty much be a nonfactor talent again
Gumbot
Gumbot Feb 4, 2008 at 11:33 pm
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wisdomcube, we farmed your faceoff, dont talk about how we're terrible. Also ming you are stupid. Rogue 3dps does not counter 2346 at all -.-. Wisdomcube, were rising the ranks pretty damn fast and we arn't farming teams for low pts or  people who are bad.
wisdomcube
wisdomcube Feb 4, 2008 at 11:39 pm
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Gumbot u beat me on a 2345 team with a priest with no mic and a mage that has never played with anyone on our team before. It was our point selling team that is ******* stupid and i hate taking control of it took them a half hour of talking to me to even want to ******* queue. How about u tell pronne not to get shattered? If our warrior didnt have downs syndrome and got off our target every time it got shattered then the games would of been nice. Until then id shut your ******* mouth until we play you again with 2346. Howd that 2v2 go with you getting beat by a ele shaman/warlock not even using vent?
If we are going to bring up games with inferior comps what happened with your 4 dps team getting 3-1 by me (should of been 4-0 but warrior fell through the map). Next question *****.
ronmexicoz
ronmexicoz Feb 4, 2008 at 11:42 pm
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OH **** SON DUMBOT GOT OWNED MAYBE HE SHOULD STOP BEING SO BAD
Vtar
Vtar Feb 4, 2008 at 11:43 pm
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ronmexicoz
ronmexicoz Feb 4, 2008 at 11:43 pm
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CHANGE BAD TO DUMB FOR ADDED SYMMETRY
Inactive
Inactive Feb 4, 2008 at 11:53 pm
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Ming telling me to move out of my mother's basement, wow that's funny. Ming, didn't you live with your mother till you were 24? Did you ever help pay bills while you lived with your parents? You know nothing about me, sorry to tell you, you should probably ask Jasi for a little bit of back ground information about me since he knows a lot more about me than probably even some of my team mates.
COT and Fear along with Earthshock/Grounding is plenty enough CC. Cyclone is easily countered by simply putting out enough pressure. If your druid isn't spamming heals into one of your three cloth and even tries to go for a cyclone you'll just get bursted. Fear is countered by 2 dispellers tremor. Polymorph is very easy to dispel since that team won't be able to train a priest with any effectiveness. 1 Single priest can't dispel bloodlust/PI/Freedom/BOP by himself without having to use at least 4.5 seconds of globals (assuming he's lucky).

You're going to get bursted, your mage is going to lose his two water elementals and be useless and like it, your priest and druid are going to have to spam heals and not play offensive... and you're going to like it.
wisdomcube
wisdomcube Feb 5, 2008 at 12:02 am
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trancez
trancez Feb 5, 2008 at 12:05 am
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i'm saying this from experience, I've played the 3dps comp enough to see it's potential and see that against the top tier teams - I still think top tier vs top tier the skill level is evened out.

You're going to tell me that you think the best 4dps and 3dps teams are gunna farm teams that constantly play together and adapt? I don't think so. I'll be willing to bet that the AK team that won the cyclone tournament wouldn't sweep the top tier teams in bg9 in a series because I don't feel that it's superiorly dominant nor does it add that much of a different dimension in 5s. It's the same as PVE clickers or Slow Roll or any of the 3 dps teams that have predestined it because it's vunerable against the same burst and grind strats that 2346 and other comps allow, although it allows a ton of variables of control, the pressure of a 2346 team could still be there as fast as a quick swap.

I could critique that vid released during the bg3 tournaments and that those teams didn't look that impressive because they didn't have the same styles of quick swapping and target changing that teams in bg9 constantly use.

hunter/warlock relies mostly on grinding opponents down while 2346 has constant burst potential. That's the idea behind target switching and quick swapping.

I don't discredit the euro teams at all, I think those teams playing 3dps are good, I just don't feel like it's the 'OVERPOWERED COMP' of 5s because it's vunerable to the same things.

besides the point, about bg9 and myself-
im one of the only american players, who've played on both europe and american servers. just like how you played on chinese servers.
i played on bg3 cyclone during season 1, I have an alt on ravencrest (sup to borked) and a lot of the bg3 old school community notices I troll their irc channel frequently. I've been following stormscale pvp since the warder 5v5 videos featuring tarde and tina. I don't doubt their capacity but I think highly of bg9's potential as of now because our battlegroup is constantly changing and adapting. there's nothing short of any team comp missing in bg9. these haters that say we're behind don't play on the bg, there's plenty of teams trying to either figure out how to crack into the top 20 and the established teams who just play all the time.

Sure, after everyone got their vengeful stuff the competition slowed down, but every month a team like shuttle*****, spray n pray, clc, rag dolled, etc show up and spice up the competition. you're going to tell me the rest of the bg isn't benefiting from this?
Romantic
Romantic Feb 5, 2008 at 12:11 am
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Adzzy
Adzzy Feb 5, 2008 at 1:31 am
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isn't inactive 16?  i'd actually hope he is still living in his mother's "basement" at least for another 2 years...


As for ming, umm, he's asian....the cost of living with their mother til 24 is living with their mother when their father dies ;\
Groz
Groz Feb 5, 2008 at 2:54 am
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I wonder what burst does 2346 have vs 3 dps rogue teams with rogue shutting down the warlock, shaman having no means to remove CoT and warrior getting cyclone spammed.
Yeah right, the hell of a burst.
trancez
trancez Feb 5, 2008 at 3:36 am
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it only takes 5 seconds at most to execute a proper quick swap. just watch any of kollektiv's videos.
shaman and warlocks have the most amount of instant cooldowns you know.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 5, 2008 at 3:36 am
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Wait? No response from Ming? Get told and like it by a "Child".
@Groz theorycrafting is great and all, but grats on getting burn spammed then? It's not really practical.
isabellified
isabellified Feb 5, 2008 at 4:43 am
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Evidence suggests Groz has never had his salad tossed by Kollektiv's ninja burst.
Score
Score Feb 5, 2008 at 6:26 am
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Groz
Groz Feb 5, 2008 at 7:07 am
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Actually I play a shaman in one of the high ranked 2345s being the target caller of the team. I watched every Kollektiv's video and know what gib is and how to execute it.

And it's pretty obvious to me that warlock isn't gonna burst anything with rogue and CoT on him be it a 5 second swap or 20. Theorycraft wise you should have your warlock and shaman left open to burst something which never happens vs rogue 3 dps CC team, you can pretty much forget about any burst swaps cause you won't have nearly enough dps to gib anyone.

I know 2346 should probably be strong vs 3 dps rogue teams otherwise there would be a zerg amount of latter, which is not the case. But talking about bursting anyone of them is kinda silly, outlasting rogue's cd's and kiting him forever probably is a better option, but it's easier to say than execute.
Appletree
Appletree Feb 5, 2008 at 8:06 am
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"once they fixed the 99% cheat death bug it'll pretty much be a nonfactor talent again"

Blizz annonced in the forums that they don't know how to fix it, so they have changed their minds and decided it doesn't need fixing.

"Although technically this is a bug, it is not one that we can currently fix."
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=2405524385&sid=1
Ekss
Ekss Feb 5, 2008 at 9:21 am unhide comment
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Adzzy
Adzzy Feb 5, 2008 at 11:52 am
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i'm fairly sure a blue on the us servers mentioned that it was going to be fixed.


And as much as u may want to have an epeen over us vs europe, the us blues tend to be actual devs.
Godsmak
Godsmak Feb 5, 2008 at 12:07 pm
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lol @ Ming - You're not even on BG9, you're on some scrub battlegroup being carried in 2s by Rad. Wtf do you know? Go make more ****ty rank 14 videos newbie.
Drjim
Drjim Feb 5, 2008 at 5:19 pm
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Innactive i have to say is the only time i agree with u totally allthough i can see u understanding that 3dps rogue can be a pain SOMETIMES but generally i agree with u.
I would really love to see this series ming is talking about if u dont mind as well.
BTW u guys in BG9 that suppose to fight day and night about all that plz quit it its geting routine now. (that went for all of u not u)
Iblis
Iblis Feb 5, 2008 at 11:26 pm
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Fuuga
Fuuga Feb 4, 2008 at 10:03 pm
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Honestly, after watching the 4-2 vids from inactive that got posted here, their team does look quite a bit better. Although I don't always understand the target switches, they use LOS very well.
Mightyal.
Mightyal. Feb 5, 2008 at 2:49 am
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Welcome to the light side my child.
ronmexicoz
ronmexicoz Feb 4, 2008 at 10:07 pm
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guys the bg 9 queue times in 2s are only like 3-4 days so i think its a good bracket to make comparisions to other bgs with
Kokoro
Kokoro Feb 4, 2008 at 10:15 pm
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where is kintts post about how to beat 3dps rogue teams, id like to see it cuz this comp rapes me
Seleukos
Seleukos Feb 4, 2008 at 10:58 pm
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I'm better sure it involves hamstringing the rogue. Or running a frost trap. Basically they don't have Freedom so the only way to remove it is with CDs.
Stryider
Stryider Feb 5, 2008 at 11:54 am
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Or shadowstepping back to your target and hitting them with a shiv so they can't kite...
Virtua
Virtua Feb 4, 2008 at 10:33 pm
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wait so why did he quit after playing vs shuttle*****
Inactive
Inactive Feb 4, 2008 at 10:42 pm
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Not sure, but he was planning on quitting before we even played Shuttle***** regardless.
Crippler
Crippler Feb 4, 2008 at 11:04 pm unhide comment
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Astaroth
Astaroth Feb 4, 2008 at 11:58 pm
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He got greedy?  So you're saying he should have started dodging?
Chidorii
Chidorii Feb 5, 2008 at 12:30 am
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HE WAS AFTER THE RATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Crippler
Crippler Feb 5, 2008 at 1:02 pm
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No ****, if he felt he won the series.. why continue other than rating? Obviously he thought they were easy and got owned and lost points.
Romantic
Romantic Feb 5, 2008 at 9:45 pm
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Their team was already #1 in the BG and they're after the rating.. yeah that makes a lot of sense. Not.

Obviously they queued for the sport and the competition.  I can't speak for them but it's common sense.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 5, 2008 at 11:38 pm
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Yeah, my team is notorious for queue dodging. What's the point? I'm not afraid to lose rating because I'll just make it back on Thursday.
Orex
Orex Feb 4, 2008 at 11:10 pm
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Mathia
Mathia Feb 4, 2008 at 11:46 pm
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Ming, who was it that made the BG9 Hype?
trancez
trancez Feb 5, 2008 at 12:12 am
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Elsy
Elsy Feb 4, 2008 at 11:47 pm
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You know, Ming sure does get an awful lot of readers who claim that his blog is terrible but consistently read it anyway.  Does saying "Ming sucks" make you cool these days?
Ricter
Ricter Feb 4, 2008 at 11:56 pm
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You obviously missed the memo.  The more terribly Ming's blog gets, the more obliged you are to post on it flaming Ming, clearing showing how much of a scrub he is, while showing what a god at a game you are.
Meanwhile, Ming laughs and gets more hits on his blog.  Really, do you idiots think he cares about your opinion?
Seleukos
Seleukos Feb 5, 2008 at 12:11 am
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It's the internet you tool!
Piss off Nerd!
Trupster
Trupster Feb 5, 2008 at 1:49 am
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Yea, and taking wow pvp seriously is also part of "the internet" retardism. It has to be seeing no one realises it is broken. Hide and have fun, once you're out there you're f*cked :>.
Trupster
Trupster Feb 5, 2008 at 1:49 am
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Yea, and taking wow pvp seriously is also part of "the internet" retardism. It has to be seeing no one realises it is broken. Hide and have fun, once you're out there you're f*cked :>.
Adzzy
Adzzy Feb 5, 2008 at 1:50 am
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Ming's goal is money, and for money you want readers.


Know how successful his blog would be if he pandered to people?  Hazard a guess?  What makes it even more interesting, is just flat out trolling the wow community can be successful.
Adzzy
Adzzy Feb 5, 2008 at 1:50 am
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Ming's goal is money, and for money you want readers.


Know how successful his blog would be if he pandered to people?  Hazard a guess?  What makes it even more interesting, is just flat out trolling the wow community can be successful.
Ekss
Ekss Feb 5, 2008 at 9:25 am
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I haven't read a full article that this blog has produced in at least a week. The only reason I come here is because the comment section entertains me when I have some downtime at work.
Iblis
Iblis Feb 5, 2008 at 11:29 pm
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cba. having fun. my new idiot is inactive now cause he plays warrior and for me this is the most retarded class in the game BEFORE Ne-s named zzLegolass.
Romantic
Romantic Feb 5, 2008 at 12:04 am
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Ming is getting very desperate for good blog posts... Lately he's been shown up by Jasi's blogs and needs to start some drama because his quality is going down the gutter.  You don't have to get so defensive.
Grunge
Grunge Feb 5, 2008 at 12:13 am
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olol drama. PvE-gear Carries them.
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