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by Jasi, Level 63
Last updated at February 6, 2008, 2:30 am

If you haven't noticed the recent trend around here lately, there's been relentless amounts of drama, **** talking, and anything and everything to do with Europe vs. USA in terms of 5v5 talent. Thanks to CLC, most of the fued was put to rest when they finally produced some much awaited footaged of some high-end 5v5 play. And even though it spawned its own seperate strings of drama, who could possibly complain about seeing more of what has been desired for months?

Now, it just so happens that I was sent a link to even more footage of some CLC play (well...sortof). Kollektiv released a new video with footage of a chunk of games of his team (Ohnoes, Kollektiv, Csik, Dymeira, Kasj, armory link here) against a half CLC team (the point selling team with Crysalid, Inactive, Krslol, Lickerz and Erellnoh(shoutout)). Now, don't forget this was a point selling team from CLC, not their standard lineup, and it's blatently clear that these games are hardly representative of their normal strength.

This movie points out a couple of important things that I feel haven't been portrayed as well in other footage. As with all of Kollektiv's movies, the quality is top notch, the music is comprised of typical PVP tracks, the viewability is great, and the UI is clean and simple. What this movie really brings to the table is a clear view into how ridiculously overpowered Shaman damage can be when combined with PI and a Warrior. Now before I continue, you can find the video here: Recalcitrant VS. CLC sell

Recalcitrant runs the season 2 standard 2345, and obviously can play it quite efficiently, as they've managed to break 2200 with the countless number of 2346 teams and incredibly anti-mage hunter/lock combos. Having played with a Mage for the majority of season 3, I can't tell you how ridiculously stupid it is how much they can get not only torn apart, but made almost completely useless whenever they are exposed to Hunters. Add a Warrior into the equation, as well as spammable tongues,and well..yeah. Regardless, I have to give them some credit for managing to be that successful with it.

The first couple of matches show a pretty neutral style on behalf of Kollektiv. A lot of good purging, well timed rank 1 ES's, and damage when necessary. However, there's an obvious playstyle difference between both teams, and while I think the video isn't exactly the best to use in terms of a deciding factor into which is better, there are a couple of important points. Kollektiv often prefers to back up heal, spamming non-stop, as opposed to relentless offensive pressure like Lickerz does from what can be seen in the video. I can understand possibly doing it sometimes, but there are a couple of points in the movie where it seemed like the extra heals weren't necessary, and more offensive pressure could have accomplished the same thing, if not more.

Later in the movie he switches to a much more aggressive style of play, and I think it works more efficiently for them as a team. In the end, he has a good sense of when to purge, great timing with his ES's, as well as keeping up with his totems.

The fights basically come down to who's mage dies first, or random swaps to inactive followed by ridiculous damage. While Ohnoes seems to be the last man standing in terms of mages, there are a couple questionable moves made by Erellnoh, such as completely outranging Crys and Krslol in the first clip (you can see Crsyalid having to stop casting twice to get within range to heal) followed by Losing them down the stairs into the starting room, and generally playing way too much out in the open (which you can especially see in the second to last clip when he does two giant, wide laps around the tomb). So because of this, it's again, hard to say which stlye of Shaman play is the most efficient based on this movie.

In the second clip, which I think is one of the most important clips of the movie, you can see one of the finest examples of how outrageous PI and Shaman are when combined. Shortly after the fight starts, Kollektiv receives a well timed PI, and unloads seven thousand damage into Inactive instantly. I have no idea how, but he managed to stay alive. If there had been even 1-2k damage from another source, it would have been entirely impossible for him to survive, regardless of his playing ability. Balanced, right?

A lot of people feel that PI lust and shaman are counterable, but here we have one of the best Priest/Shaman duo currently playing, who are both quite efficient at removing lust and PI on Shaman(which can be seen in the clips) yet because of the nature of PI, it is completely unstoppable sometimes unless you tunnel vision the shaman non-stop If you still think the combination is balanced after watching this, I don't know what to tell you.

Now, before you jump in and say, "DONT KILL SHAMAN IN THE ONLY BRACKET THEY'RE GOOD IN", understand that I think it almost entirely comes down to an issue with PI, not Shaman. I've discussed solutions to the issue in articles from more than a month ago, and as it stands now, the issue still exists. You may also say that it's somewhat of a biased perspective considering the damage was on a Warrior in zerker stance (Note :NO DEATHWISH), but even considering that, there's no arguing for it being this powerful.

Another issue that can be seen in this video, which I'm sure anyone who plays with a mage is aware of, is the easability in killing Water Elementals, which really destroys mage efficiency.

In the third clip, once again we can see how awesome RNG is when Inactive get's swapped to after his team uses PS,  get's imp. Hamstrung and blown to hell.

The movie was great, as can always be expected from Kollektiv, and it makes me look forward to and hope that there will be footage from the upcoming 5v5 tournament that is as well produced as this.

     
183 comments
glick
glick Feb 6, 2008 at 2:41 am
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hasn't recalcitrant been running 2346 for the majority of their games since they formed with azael
Jasi
Jasi Feb 6, 2008 at 2:45 am
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Honestly, I'm not sure. They still play 2345 well though.
Fershie
Fershie Feb 6, 2008 at 4:33 am
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We play more 2346 but still play 2345 when Ohnoes is in the mood~(he has his own team also).
Lickerzz
Lickerzz Feb 6, 2008 at 2:44 am
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just a random thought here as i never played 2345 until the night we played against kollektiv and them

2345 mirrors are a lot more fun than 2346 mirrors

also, pi is dumb and should not let me instantly dump like 10k damage into someone

ok bye
Jasi
Jasi Feb 6, 2008 at 2:44 am
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Definitely looked that way.
Kokoro
Kokoro Feb 6, 2008 at 2:46 am
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i wanna see some kollektiv matches against clc 2346
Errelnoh
Errelnoh Feb 6, 2008 at 2:52 am
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That was my first night playing with that team.

I haven't played on a 2/3 5v5 since season 1.  I'd like to see you come out of a break like that and replace CLC's warlock for a night!
Jasi
Jasi Feb 6, 2008 at 3:00 am
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I'm sure it's a lot of pressure, but some of that stuff was just *facepalm* =D
Errelnoh
Errelnoh Feb 6, 2008 at 3:10 am
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Yeah, I made a few pretty bad mistakes and I'm sure they're in the video, just annoying to play under those conditions and then find it in a video.

By the way we won more than we lost against them.


Pretty sure I'm going to fraps next time we play, but I don't want to do it like Kollektiv's video.  It's easy to make it look like you dominate a team when you pick the clips, so I want to do something like...

Frapsing until there's 5 decent games, win or lose, and put the vent recordings of us with it.
Fershie
Fershie Feb 6, 2008 at 4:35 am
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I'm pretty sure we went pretty evenly, and I told Kollektiv to render both the wins and the losses. As far as I know, he was just testing the mp4 codec (which was absolutely horrible btw) and he's re-rendering with a different codec with all of the wins/losses (except the first four games, which we went 2-2 anyways and he didn't record).
Seleukos
Seleukos Feb 6, 2008 at 11:10 pm
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BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Feb 6, 2008 at 2:54 am
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Both PI and shaman burst are separate issues that both need to be fixed. PI on a mage is still retarded burst, and so is shaman burst without PI. Either make PI not castable on others, or remove the damage portion of it. As for ele shamans I really don't know how you'd fix them, they're just so gimmicked around their instant burst output.
Jasi
Jasi Feb 6, 2008 at 3:00 am
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IMO, PI on a Mage is much less of an issue because they can be completely shut down from...well... a pet pretty much. The fact that they have no anti-pushback can greatly reduce their output even with PI. A lot of their burst can rely on the WE as well, and with it currently being incredibly easy to kill, it's a lot easier to break apart their damage.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 3:19 am
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Jasi, that'll change if they make mages have no push back. Honestly, I don't see why people can't understand 2.3 did basically nothing to hunters but significantly buffed 2345/2346 (I say this because everybody *****es about hunters...when nothing changed really). Nearly infinite mana for a shaman (cool down on water shield?), PI (LOL MORE BURST) ANDDDD 100% push back resist.

but yeah, it is way easier to stop a mages damage than a shamans - even if mages had 100% push back resist.

There was way too much pressure on Errelnoh (and lack of experience) to have him play as well as Ohnoes who has tons of more experience as 2345. - Just thought I'd back Errelnoh up :p
Jasi
Jasi Feb 6, 2008 at 3:23 am
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Yeah I don't mean to call him out or anything, hell, I did give him his shoutout :P
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 3:39 am
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I know, but there are a lot of stupid people on gameriot that aren't even above the 1700's.
etre
etre Feb 6, 2008 at 4:15 am
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@Inactive

2.3 did nothing to hunters ? You shame your name. How can you be so high rated and do a so retarded comment ?

Ask any caster class what they think about hunters now.
BEASTWOOD
BEASTWOOD Feb 6, 2008 at 4:18 am
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How bout you actually look at what hunters got in 2.3, nothing that made much difference at all especially for 5v5
Weesee
Weesee Feb 6, 2008 at 4:22 am
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The only difference between now and before 2.3 in terms of hunter vs caster is that arcane shot removes buffs. Hunters always caused ridiculous amounts of pressure on casters because of the spell pushback they create. Between their shots and their pet it is very difficult to get anything other than instant casts off, which absolutely destroys mages in the arena. That wasn't caused by 2.3, it's been like that for a long time.
skromzor
skromzor Feb 6, 2008 at 5:29 am
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Shaman damage is crazy with PI theres no doubt about that.... When combining a 10 minute cooldown, 21pt talent, a 31pt talent, and another 31pt talent at the same time one would expect some pretty big numbers no?

In Inactive's vid when he gets gibbed, the shaman pops bloodlust 10 seconds earlier, which is already a big sign that they are about to focus someone hard. Glorin then pops trinket, gets PI and bloodfury, all right in front of Inactive... Obviously Inactive is an amazing warrior but when u let a shaman combine all those cooldown's and freecast on you in complete los you are going to die 9/10 times...

You don't let a priest chain burns into your paladin and you expect your paladin not to be in los to eat those burns, just like if the shaman targets you and spell alert pops up "Glorbin gains power infusion" you D and break los.
zyZ-
zyZ- Feb 6, 2008 at 8:46 am
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bloodlust shouldn't be in arena anyway
Rioter
Rioter Feb 6, 2008 at 10:25 am
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Weesee, you don't think deadzone removal helps hunters a lot against mages?
nzgs
nzgs Feb 6, 2008 at 11:02 am
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skromzor pretty much summed it up. Ele burst is overpowered but a tunnel-visioning warrior doesn't help matters. At least it is blatently obvious when the nuke is coming. Being caught in a rng stun explains some but i mean otherwise these things are avoidable.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 12:04 pm
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Thing is, Clicker never really communicated with us. He didn't tell us he was going to LOS burns, or anything.
@bad euro scrub above me, when a priest tunnel visions burns you have to attack him in order to prevent the burns and the reason he can do this is the PVE Paladin, so the casters are able to free cast. Grats dude, you really are retarded nzgs and have no grasp over anything arena-wise.
Sele
Sele Feb 6, 2008 at 2:07 pm
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Inactive can you pleaz ******* stop with all those ridiculously retarded ad hominem attacks and focus on actual arguments for a bit?

Since you are 16 or whatever you probably don't know what "ad hominem" means, but that's ok you can look it up (LOL SEE WHAT I DID THERE?).
Grailyn
Grailyn Feb 6, 2008 at 4:00 pm
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Wait did you just attack him for making attacks then make a personal attack on him?  Classy.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 4:41 pm
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ad hominem refers to arguing by attacking someone rather than the topic iirc.
"Wait did you just attack him for making attacks then make a personal attack on him?  Classy."
He openly attacks me, and he's euro trash that can do nothing but theorycraft and doesn't even know anything about the basics of WoW.
Sele
Sele Feb 6, 2008 at 4:55 pm
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Calx
Calx Feb 6, 2008 at 5:27 pm
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nice response sele, raped idiot
Adzzy
Adzzy Feb 6, 2008 at 6:16 pm
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no deadzone removal didn't help hunters much against mages, other than in 1v1 situations, i wish any mage the best of luck that tried to deadzone a hunter in 5v5 though.
Weesee
Weesee Feb 6, 2008 at 6:39 pm
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No, the deadzone removal didn't change much in arenas in terms of shutting mages down. It contributed, sure, but keep in mind that hunters have a 41 yard range and can shut-down a mage in a 5v5 setting from halfway across the map. The only thing 2.3 really changed was that you see a lot more bad hunters now, due to the changes the class received, which means their ability to shut down mages is more noticeable because of numbers alone.
Karthera
Karthera Feb 6, 2008 at 11:56 pm
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They didn't make much of a difference for 5v5, but they definitely made a large difference in the other brackets.
Kokoro
Kokoro Feb 6, 2008 at 3:03 am
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whats that mod that is spell alert with the icons of the skill they doing instead of words

and what mod is that when he clicks on someone shows all that info
Schnitter
Schnitter Feb 6, 2008 at 4:56 am
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The spell alerter I dont know (and want to know). The info box you see is called TinyTip (files.wowace.com)
Deeta
Deeta Feb 6, 2008 at 3:04 am
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yea going on a break has alot to do with blatantly losing your healers when they were probably yelling at you.
Lickerzz
Lickerzz Feb 6, 2008 at 3:32 am
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someone from nightfall talking **** without knowing circumstances k
mad-doc
mad-doc Feb 6, 2008 at 3:07 am
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so shaman burst is op but what is left besides that?
like you said without burst why take a shaman(is there any 2on2/3on3 team where the shaman isnt a 1 shot fire and forget bl burst bot)?

i would happily trade my burst for something more "skillfull".

The funny thing is even when you play the burst game in 2on2 ( sham/frost mage or sham /bm hunter). In all vids the shaman still have to use rocket boots and invul belt.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 3:21 am
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Hawkn
Hawkn Feb 6, 2008 at 3:22 am
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I don't think he meant to nerf shamans, but rather change them into not
being that burst oriented. the whole lust pi mechanics are just
stupid imo, needs a complete rework.
Lickerzz
Lickerzz Feb 6, 2008 at 3:29 am
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a castable fire spell that has some sort of useful mechanic would be nice in exchange for reducing our burst dmg

Like put dragons breath attached to a scorch or something with some cooldown, that'd be fun and interesting since shamans are built around a 5 second interrupt anyway

ok so my idea sucks bite me

the alternative:
SHAMAN FLAME WREATH
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 3:29 am
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yeah, some people fail to realize burst is retarded when it's nearly unpreventable. I have no problem with extreme burst that is preventable in a reasonable time frame. Shaman Burst goes like this: Lightning Bolt, NS CL, Earthshock. No real counter considering they have no push back and the only thing they cast is lightning bolt.

Honestly it wouldn't be too hard to fix shamans. Remove elemental fury (along with a change to PI) and you've pretty much fixed them and put a cool down on water shield. I do think removing elemental fury is an easy fix that would probably be too devastating (just like some people say remove arena water so mages can be viable), just make the burst more preventable with good play and not based off of RNG.
The problems that root from lust are priest based regardless of what team a priest plays on and that is that mana burn needs a short cool down.
Lickerzz
Lickerzz Feb 6, 2008 at 3:35 am
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shaman damage is too reliant on crits to remove elemental fury since we carry upwards of 33% crit as it is, i assume you meant elemental mastery to guarantee the crit, in which case that makes the rng effect worse because you MIGHT get crit for a lot regardless.

COME UP WITH A BETTER IDEA PLS INACTIVE, LIKE SEARING PAINBREATH
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 3:38 am
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you dumbass justin read the entire post, I said that'd be the most simplest way of fixing shaman burst by nerfing elemental fury, then I said but that can't/won't happen because of several reasons nerd -_-

Just like the simplest way of fixing mages would be to remove arena water.

Neither of them are good solutions at all.
Lickerzz
Lickerzz Feb 6, 2008 at 3:39 am
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if by devastating you mean make the class closer to unplayable, then yes

and when i mentioned a fire spell with an effect, i meant for it to be the 41 point talent so people give up NS for it

just to clarify
mad-doc
mad-doc Feb 6, 2008 at 3:40 am
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make ns  dmg spell do only half dmg. 
remove EM.

give us sth else, no 2345 skill.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 3:46 am
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Lickerzz
Lickerzz Feb 6, 2008 at 3:47 am
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Tut
Tut Feb 6, 2008 at 11:28 am
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Wow remove elemental elemental fury, that sure would "fix" shaman, infact Inactive you would probably never have to play against one again.
Inactive
Inactive Feb 6, 2008 at 12:05 pm
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Tut you're dumb. Read everything.

"I said that'd be the most simplest way of fixing shaman burst by nerfing elemental fury, then I said but that can't/won't happen because of several reasons nerd -_-

Just like the simplest way of fixing mages would be to remove arena water.

Neither of them are good solutions at all."
Cooldown
Cooldown Feb 6, 2008 at 10:52 pm
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swap elemental mastery with totem of wrath imo