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by Jasi, Level 63
Last updated at May 7, 2008, 5:43 am
My previous "Deep 6" article started a couple of interesting sub-topics within the relatively large number of comments. Most notable was Swarm's comment in which he portrayed his feelings as to how "hybrid" classes are actually overpowered - these of which include Feral Druids. Basically, he figured that Blizzard generally designs "hybrid" classes from a more direct damage standpoint at the cost of little to no CC compared to non-hybrids, and due to the overall trend that Blizzard has followed since release (uncontrolled scaling in damage outpoint with little increase in defense to match) that hybrid classes, the ones that are compensated by Blizzard with damage output, are now overpowered.

I whole heartedly agree. Now before you jump on some sort of soap box or bandwagon and call me crazy for agreeing that "hybrid" classes have become overpowered, you have to take a couple steps back and look at things from a broader and slightly different perspective.

As I have written about a handful of times already, Blizzard generally gets out of control with their own PVP gear progression. The evidence is buried within the Arena and it doesn't even take careful observation to see that certain classes have lost viability due to the fact that they are unable to defend themselves against the rate at which damage has scaled. Shadow Priests are a perfect example of this and even classes like Warlocks can be susceptible to pain-trains now while they were previously the most durable class out there. During season 1 and 2, Spriests were quite powerful, and you could easily find them in all three brackets. As damage began to scale in mid to late season 2, they slowly began to decline in overall representation and have become nothing but distractions now that season 3 is almost reaching an end. The TR has teams with Spriests simply because Armor penetration and damage hadn't quite scaled to the point where they were no longer viable during season 2.

The damage scaling issues, as previously mentioned, go quite a bit back in WoW time as well. Before TBC was released, PVP was nothing more than a glorified gib festival with gimmicky tactics dominating the playing-field. With TBC, Blizzard was able to have a clean slate, developed resilience, and it was seemingly all going to go well as seasons progressed. Now, which is to be expected, they have overextended themselves, and have reached the same point they were at between original WoW and TBC - WoTLK will become their new drawing board.

On the topic of hybrid specs again, the overwhelming evidence for their newly quired OP'edness I think was established by Swarm himself alongside Serennia. I remember playing against them as they were in their very first developmental stages of playing the 5v5 comp and I was literally almost instantly gibbed when they focused me. The overwhelming brute force in terms of the damage output they were capable of was just disgusting and terribly wrong for any sort of positive progression of the game. While our team tried to control their offense with CC's and careful organization, they just ass rammed us straight back through the entrance gate. Their was no need for them to use any CC. The damage that most hybrid classes can put out is easily able to rival or even surpass regular, one dimensional classes, and while I've noted that a lot of people disagree with this fact, I feel that you need to pay closer attention at the kind of output certain hybrid classes are capable of at the cost of little to no CC.

Now, the main reason I agree with Swarm in that they are overpowered, is because of Blizzards shortcomings in the design/balance team. They did take the approach of giving "hybrid" classes the ability to unload a huge front load of damage as a suitable way of portraying and designing under "hybrid" criteria and while this would normally work, because of their inability to scale gear without breaking things, "hybrid classes" got the ass-end of the stick in what they originally thought was Blizzard finally developing their classes into the versatile characters that "hybrid" would imply. Now of course, the exact opposite happened, and certain classes became right-click-pray-and-spray, or complete cooldown ****** that redefine the term gimmick. Normally this would not be preferred over quality CC and control - which is what every regular class has to offer - simply because it was not superior in effectiveness and the damage was not enough to make up for the fact that you were pretty much gimp in every other regard; much like a prot warrior trying to openly dps.

Now, as damage has scaled to the point at which it is, the ability to train the living **** out of someone is at the point where it's just more effective than the old CC and control game that was season 1 and 2. Swaps aren't necessary, comps like Serennias and Swarms were developed along side Euro comp, and hybrid classes are now in a position where the shortcomings of Blizzard development, which caused them to be extremely one dimensional and overpowered within said dimension, are exploited and abused for laughter or easier wins. It's only because of the overwhelming damage that these classes can put out that these methods and strategies can be successful, which is the underlying reason they are overpowered. When teams are generated and focused around centralizing the extreme amount of offense a "hybrid" class can put forth, they effectively further overpower them. This is the issue. Every team composed with a "hybrid" is teaming with a Warrior, or ETC which can take the already one-sided offensive specs like Ret Paladins and Enhancement shaman and push them far beyond where they're supposed to be in damage from skills like sunder armor and windfury. The worst part is that when you take them away from these other classes again, they become somewhat weak by themselves.

Blizzard has overcompensated in their skewed vision of what a "hybrid" is, and has only brought these classes further away from what those that play them would prefer. When they've become dependent on makeups that exploit their poor design, everything is wrong. Bringing them back to a more balanced hybrid setup between two aspects of the class, but doing it correctly is what needs to be done. However, I feel in order to do that, you'd have to practically re balance everything else within the arena at the same time. It's because of how ridiculously well damage has scaled that has caused all of these issues in the first place, therefor lowering damage could be one of the only solutions.

Hopefully once WoTLK comes around and Blizzard follows through with the revamps they said we'd have to wait for the expansion to see (said by Blizzard about 6-9 months ago), we can truely see what a "hybrid" should be.
     
178 comments
Adzzy
Adzzy May 7, 2008 at 11:46 am
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sigh, it's not that hybrids are overpowered, it's specifically the fact an enhancement shaman can inadvertently remove your defense, which as a priest is all magic buff related and the class has nothing to do 70% of the time but auto-swing and purge.

It demonstrates the poorly thought out mechanics of magic buff related class, ie paladin, priest, mage (no frost armor makes like fun) and to a lesser extent (thx to lifebloom) druid vs spam dispelling, magic dispelling should have never been able to remove core survival abilities with such a high success rate.

Imagine being able to remove a rogues sprint, cloak, evasion, cheat death etc and you basically have what the issue is, as it is, they give more dispel protection to offense than defense, which is utterly retarded.
Caal
Caal May 7, 2008 at 11:49 am
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After thinking about it for a bit, I'll be honest. I'm completely confused as to what this blog is referring to. Like, are Enhancement Shamans overpowered? I think you're out of your damn mind if you think that's the case. Ferals? I hope that's a joke, I really do. Ret Pallies? No.. not seeing that one either. The fact that the arena meta game is opening up to allow classes like those to play just means they're strong against something. That just so happens to be the completely immobile Warlock class combined with abusing HoTs.

Rogues are overpowered.. R.Druids are overpowered.. I'm just at a loss as to how you're coming away with stuff like this. I don't know.. run with a Paladin?
Baxter
Baxter May 7, 2008 at 12:53 pm
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AeoltheGrammarChecker
AeoltheGrammarChecker May 7, 2008 at 2:22 pm
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It's not the hybrid class that's overpowered, it's the situation as a whole in which the hybrid class is performing in. Stacked compositions with a certain strenght, going against a certain other composition with weaknesses relating to those strenghts, in a specific environment. That paired with a few recent unchecked defects that have colated into the game like armor pen, etc. Like Caal said though; Restodruids and warriors for example are over powered, but I'm also at a loss as to how you can seriously say some of these hybrids are overpowered.
Jasi
Jasi May 7, 2008 at 3:06 pm
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"It's not the hybrid class that's overpowered, it's the situation
as a whole in which the hybrid class is performing in. Stacked
compositions with a certain strenght, going against a certain other
composition with weaknesses relating to those strenghts, in a specific
environment. That paired with a few recent unchecked defects that have
colated into the game like armor pen, etc."

Thank you. Perhaps I started rambling at the end there, but so many people are missing the point...
kavekk
kavekk May 7, 2008 at 7:50 pm
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Maybe because you're a **** writer?

Maybe because if you didn't want to communicate that you thought Hybrids were currently overpowered (when you explicitly state as much) then you communicate terribly.

Oh, also, here's a quote from you:

"The whole point was to show that it was the damage scaling that made hybrid classes overpowered "

And a quote from Aeol up there:

"I'm also at a loss as to how you can seriously say some of these hybrids are overpowered."

Ferals are almost 100% included there.

He doesn't understand you, Jasi. No one who hasn't had a full frontal brain lobotomy would. You said in the quote I have included that the rambling was the main point, and what he agrees with you on (offensive scaling > defensive scaling) was put forward to prove that hybrids are overpowered - and I am afraid that is when the logic train becaomes non sequitur and all of us normal people get off.

I look forward to your response.
Caal
Caal May 8, 2008 at 5:00 am
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The fact that Warlocks are completely mindless, efficient monsters DOES NOT make the occasional hybrid class overpowered. It's about time people started getting clever with the makeups they run. The whole go warlock or go home stuff was just stupid.

In before the RMP ON TR LOL comment. You know why that comp is farkin ridiculous right now. Don't bother bringing up that crappy argument.
vhell
vhell May 7, 2008 at 12:16 pm
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The most surprising thing I noticed when I first started WoW was the basic design of every class to be able to solo well.  I expected to have to rely on a full time group or at least another player to accomplish anything in the game, but it just wasn't there.  I think it's Blizzard's design flaw that causes this, where they want people to be able to solo at any time.  The spillover effects from this are the hybrid specs being useful.

In other MMO games, the ability to solo quickly was a side-effect of the design of the class, and didn't seem to be the upfront important design element.  I personally leveled as a Holy Priest in alpha and beta, because I always had a group around.  When the game was released and everyone was marathoning to 60, I found it much faster to solo as shadow than to group or even duo, and that upset me.

Hybridism normally brings a lot of drawbacks to a class (spec), and even classes with pets felt certain drawbacks.  I always thought it was funny when Shadow Priests would complain about their role in PvP, since it was undecidedly an offspec.  I don't see any (serious) Prot Warrior/Paladin concerns regarding the arena, so why do the ****ter specs of Priest/Druid/Shaman expect to be viable?
daays
daays May 7, 2008 at 1:16 pm
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Show me the prot gear at the arena vendor

Show me the feral, the shadow, the balance, the enhancement, etc.

That is why people expect them to be viable. If they never added those sets people would assume 1 role. But they didn't and as such people expect those specs to be viable.
TehJerk
TehJerk May 8, 2008 at 9:13 am
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hey everyone look its gaays!!!11
Vadren
Vadren May 7, 2008 at 3:30 pm
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I originally envisioned playing a warrior as being a class to protect my teammates and disrupt my enemies, and I'd still love that kind of role to be viable. While I'm not about to raise a **** storm over a lack of prot warrior viability, it's still something that I'd like to see after 3 years.
Malcolm
Malcolm May 7, 2008 at 12:30 pm
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"On the topic of hybrid specs again, the overwhelming evidence for their newly quired OP'edness I think was established by Swarm himself alongside Serennia. I remember playing against them as they were in their very first developmental stages of playing the 5v5 comp and I was literally almost instantly gibbed when they focused me. ... The damage that most hybrid classes can put out is easily able to rival or even surpass regular, one dimensional classes, and while I've noted that a lot of people disagree with this fact, I feel that you need to pay closer attention at the kind of output certain hybrid classes are capable of at the cost of little to no CC."

You assertion isn't supported by the evidence you provide. Serennia's team only includes 2 hybrid classes: paladin and shaman. The former can be completely ignored because (1) most successful 5s teams have used paladins since season 1, and (2) the paladin is specced to exclusively heal, therefore he does not play a hybrid role in any way.

The only remotely different thing Serennia did was have the traditionally used elemental shaman spec enhancement to stack physical DPS. Their brute force damage can hardly be attributed to the "overpoweredness" of hybrid classes, but rather to the scaling of melee classes (and lolwindfury).
Adzzy
Adzzy May 8, 2008 at 1:51 am
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it's ms debuff + spam purge on a class dependent on magic buffs for defense.

you're basically stacking the classes that give priests trouble, warrior, rogue and enh shaman and letting them have a party.
Bromsius
Bromsius May 7, 2008 at 12:57 pm
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Not once in this article do you define what you mean by a "hybrid" class (apart from druids). Are priests "hybrid" because they can do dps (shadow) and heal (disc), are warriors "hybrid" because they can tank (prot) and dps (arms)? Some clarification on this point would be appreciated!

It seems to me though you are talking purely from a 5v5 perspective. Shamans and paladins are no way OP in 2v2 and 3v3.

I'm sorry but again this is another example of QQ'ing rather than finding a way to beat particular comps. Theres too much crying on Gameriot and the WoW forums about class imbalance etc etc. If Geecee can make shaman/warrior work in 2v2 with an underpowered class then its possible to find a way to beat these "hybrid" comps or whatever you want to call them.

Damage probably has scaled too much in S3 especially with the armor pen stat but all classes are viable it just depends on the skill of the player.
Necron
Necron May 7, 2008 at 12:57 pm
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Maybe Jasi's writing a term paper on "human reaction towards stupid comments on things they love".

:p
oxxo
oxxo May 7, 2008 at 1:08 pm
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No such thing as a hybrid since TBC.  (41 point talent trees, gear/stat inflation)

You pure class elitist *****es need to get that through your heads.
Kaeroth
Kaeroth May 7, 2008 at 1:21 pm
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It's funny that Jasi complains about Shadow priests and they lack of survivability, cry about "hybrids", but forgets to add that Shadow Priest themselves are, by Blizzard's definition, "Hybrids".

So according to your own logic, rather than being underpowered, Shadow priests are OP, just like feral druids, ret paladins and enhancment shamans! In fact they are exactly like the definition of "hybrids" you gave - classes that, in their damage spec, sacrifice a huge deal of CC in order to have more damage, when compared to pure classes. ALL SO OP!

........Wait, no.

Worst post you've ever done.

Also there are no hybrids anymore in this game. Reckoning paladins were hybrids. Elemental shamans back in previous season were hybrids. Now it's a tunnel vision damage or heal fest to be effective.
Necron
Necron May 7, 2008 at 4:03 pm
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agree with some of that, but  "sacrifice a huge deal of CC in order to have more damage, when compared to pure classes. ALL SO OP!" doesn't apply to shadowpriests. Example:pure dps class mage vs a shadowpriest. Is the lack of priest cc made up for with more "more dmg" than the mage? Imho no.
zealous
zealous May 7, 2008 at 1:34 pm
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Why does Jasi even make these **** articles if he doesn't even play the game anymore? He doesn't even ******* play the game, or know **** about what he's talking about. But it's good he sneaks in how underpowered shadow priests are since they're a hybrid too.

Hypocrisy gogo.
houdeanis
houdeanis May 7, 2008 at 2:11 pm
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I see World of Warcraft is still a horrible game.
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